Template:Did you know nominations/Werewolves of Ossory
- The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was: promoted by Allen3 talk 11:46, 28 October 2015 (UTC)
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Werewolves of Ossory
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Depiction of the werewolves of Ossory
... that the legendary werewolves of Ossory (pictured) were said to have founded a dynasty of Irish kings?
- Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Mein Herze schwimmt im Blut, BWV 199
- Comment: This one's for Halloween.
Created by Prioryman (talk). Self-nominated at 21:01, 9 October 2015 (UTC).
New enough, long enough, image checks out. The problem is with the hook, which says "founded a dynasty of Irish kings". However, the (main body) of the article says that the werewolf Laignech Fàelad was a brother of kings - i.e. not an ancestor. Now, I see the "ancestor of kings" is in the cited source (Sconduto, p. 34), but that doesn't seem to be "ancestor" in the strict sense. Would you be able to explain this a bit more (i.e. to me here, but possibly also in the article)? StAnselm (talk) 02:46, 10 October 2015 (UTC)
- The main body of the article does call him an ancestor - "He was said to be the brother of Feradach mac Duach, the king of Ossory, and the ancestor of its subsequent kings who ruled until being deposed by the Normans." Sconduto, and also John Carey in 'Werewolves in Ireland', Cambrian Medieval Celtic Studies 44 (Winter 2002) 37–72, both state explicitly that Laignech Fàelad was "ancestor of [Ossory's] kings thereafter" (as Carey puts it). They don't explain how this came about so I've not expanded on it further as it would be original research on my part, but the most likely answer is that Laignech Fàelad's kingly brother died childless and the throne was inherited by one of Laignech Fàelad's children. Prioryman (talk) 07:27, 10 October 2015 (UTC)
- Yes, I can understand not wanting to OR, but for DYK we really need to get to the bottom of this. I see the Cóir Anmann text here: it doesn't seem to say anything about kings, and so I question the second sentence in the "Laignech Fàelad" section. The Sconduto source has a footnote for the "ancestor of its future kings" sentence, but it doesn't seem to be visible on Google Books. StAnselm (talk) 08:40, 10 October 2015 (UTC)
- It's not from the Cóir Anmann but from another work - De Ingantaib Érenn, specifically the manuscript held by Trinity College Dublin, according to Carey. I've made the attribution clearer in the article. Prioryman (talk) 09:19, 10 October 2015 (UTC)
- Is there any reason the Carey source isn't in the article, by the way? And do you have access to a translation of De Ingantaib Érenn? I'd like to know what it actually says, because all that I see in Sconduto is that De Ingantaib Érenn talks about Laignech Fàelad being an ancestor of a line of werewolves. (It sounds a lot like the brothers Elrond and Elros, by the way...) Anyway, I can't help feeling Sconduto is misreading Carey. StAnselm (talk) 19:10, 10 October 2015 (UTC)
- The misreading is mine, I'm afraid - I had thought Carey was referring to De Ingantaib Érenn but on a second reading it's clear that he is referring to other genealogies. The exact line I'm citing is on page 57 and reads: "This Laignech Faelad is in fact a figure of considerable dynastic importance. The genealogies portray him not only as the brother of Feradach mac Duach, a king of Ossory who died in 583 or 584, but as ancestor of its kings thereafter." I've added a reference to this in the article. The genealogies in question are discussed on this page, which usefully has a copy of what they say along with a geneaological table (see table 1). Prioryman (talk) 20:36, 10 October 2015 (UTC)
- OK, thank you. I think we're getting close to a resolution here. I had seen that genealogical page already, and had noted that it doesn't mention werewolves. But it seems that we have some sources saying that Laignech is a werewolf, and some sources saying that he is an ancestor of kings. However, we don't seem to have any primary source that conflates the too - it is something that Carey has noticed. This is definitely worth including in the article, and in the DYK hook, but we have to be careful of wording. Maybe something like, "He was said in some sources to be the ancestor of a tribe of werewolves, and in others to be an ancestor of the kings of Ossory." What do you think? StAnselm (talk) 21:27, 10 October 2015 (UTC)
- I'm not sure that's entirely accurate. Sconduto writes that De Ingantaib Érenn says that the werewolves were "descendants of Laigne[ch] Faelad in Ossory" (page 34). Unfortunately I can't find a translation or transcript of that work online. Basically, we have three facts (or rather claims) from different sources: that Laignech Faelad was the brother of the king of Ossory (according to the genealogies), that he was a werewolf (according to Cóir Anmann), and that he was the ancestor of the werewolves of Ossory (according to De Ingantaib Érenn). So perhaps a viable alternative hook might be something like the following? Prioryman (talk) 12:22, 13 October 2015 (UTC)
- ALT 1: ... that the werewolves of Ossory (pictured) were said to be descended from a werewolf who was the brother of an Irish king?
- I'm not sure that's entirely accurate. Sconduto writes that De Ingantaib Érenn says that the werewolves were "descendants of Laigne[ch] Faelad in Ossory" (page 34). Unfortunately I can't find a translation or transcript of that work online. Basically, we have three facts (or rather claims) from different sources: that Laignech Faelad was the brother of the king of Ossory (according to the genealogies), that he was a werewolf (according to Cóir Anmann), and that he was the ancestor of the werewolves of Ossory (according to De Ingantaib Érenn). So perhaps a viable alternative hook might be something like the following? Prioryman (talk) 12:22, 13 October 2015 (UTC)
- OK, thank you. I think we're getting close to a resolution here. I had seen that genealogical page already, and had noted that it doesn't mention werewolves. But it seems that we have some sources saying that Laignech is a werewolf, and some sources saying that he is an ancestor of kings. However, we don't seem to have any primary source that conflates the too - it is something that Carey has noticed. This is definitely worth including in the article, and in the DYK hook, but we have to be careful of wording. Maybe something like, "He was said in some sources to be the ancestor of a tribe of werewolves, and in others to be an ancestor of the kings of Ossory." What do you think? StAnselm (talk) 21:27, 10 October 2015 (UTC)
- The misreading is mine, I'm afraid - I had thought Carey was referring to De Ingantaib Érenn but on a second reading it's clear that he is referring to other genealogies. The exact line I'm citing is on page 57 and reads: "This Laignech Faelad is in fact a figure of considerable dynastic importance. The genealogies portray him not only as the brother of Feradach mac Duach, a king of Ossory who died in 583 or 584, but as ancestor of its kings thereafter." I've added a reference to this in the article. The genealogies in question are discussed on this page, which usefully has a copy of what they say along with a geneaological table (see table 1). Prioryman (talk) 20:36, 10 October 2015 (UTC)
- Is there any reason the Carey source isn't in the article, by the way? And do you have access to a translation of De Ingantaib Érenn? I'd like to know what it actually says, because all that I see in Sconduto is that De Ingantaib Érenn talks about Laignech Fàelad being an ancestor of a line of werewolves. (It sounds a lot like the brothers Elrond and Elros, by the way...) Anyway, I can't help feeling Sconduto is misreading Carey. StAnselm (talk) 19:10, 10 October 2015 (UTC)
- It's not from the Cóir Anmann but from another work - De Ingantaib Érenn, specifically the manuscript held by Trinity College Dublin, according to Carey. I've made the attribution clearer in the article. Prioryman (talk) 09:19, 10 October 2015 (UTC)
