Template:Did you know nominations/Pop Maynard

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Cwmhiraeth (talk) 05:47, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

Pop Maynard

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... that traditional English singer Pop Maynard ~~(1872–1962)~~was also the captain of a world champion marbles team?

5x expanded by Monxton (talk). Self-nominated at 00:01, 24 August 2020 (UTC).

5x expansion verified. New enough, long enough, neutrally written, well referenced. However, many paragraphs have no citations at all, per Rule D2, and I have also tagged sentences that include quotes that must have come from somewhere. Similarly, important facts, like the year of their first marbles championship win to verify the hook fact, need to be cited. I'm not sure what's going on in the Discography section; normally all that information you added should also be sourced. Images are fair use and freely licensed. No QPQ needed for nominator with less than 5 DYK credits. I removed the birth/death dates from the hook. Yoninah (talk) 22:10, 30 August 2020 (UTC)
- Thanks for taking the trouble to review this article. Please understand that I have a lot of experience writing academic essays but I am not well versed in WP protocol. There are several questions I need help with here. Sorry there are a lot of words below.
  1. I had thought that a wikilink could work as a reference. I get that as per WP:DYKSG#D4, WP itself is not a suitable source, There's a difference though between WP being a source itself, and a reference being in a linked article. For example, I say "The British and World Marbles Championship is said to date back to 1588." That article has two references for the 1588 date. I should copy those into this article? Apart from this applying to all the stuff about marbles championships dates which are all set out on that linked page, it's the only way I can make sense of "many paragraphs have no citations at all." There are just two paragraphs which have neither a direct citation nor a wikilink to a direct citation.
  2. Many of your missing citation tags are at the ends of sentences which do have citations. For example, the sentence about the baptism record. The details of a baptism record may vary by country, but this one has a date, a place, the names of the child and of the parents and the father's profession, which seem likely to be a fairly standard set. So I cited a transcription of the baptism record, putting the citation after the first claim. You obviously don't like that, but I'm not sure I understand why. Are you telling me that all of the six or so facts that are derived from the same source and given in the same sentence should be separately cited? Or that you want the citation moved from the first of the associated claims to the last? Can you give me a pointer to show that this is a WP policy rather than your individual preference? I can see An inline citation means any citation added close to the material it supports, for example after the sentence or paragraph, normally in the form of a footnote. at Citing sources#Types of citation, but that leaves open what "close to" means.
  3. "I'm not sure what's going on in the Discography section; normally all that information you added should also be sourced." Perhaps this is the same issue? Every entry in the discography has at least one reference, but I put the citations at the earliest opportunity, which seems the most logical position to me. Or is there some other problem with them which I have not grasped?
  4. Take the claim "and all known recordings of him date from this period, the last ten years of his life". I thought it was important to make the point that there are no recordings of him in his prime, only in his very last years. You asked for a citation. I didn't think this claim was contentious. His death in 1962 has citations, and the recording dates in the discography are all given as being in the period from 1955 to 1960 and are referenced. There is an obvious problem of evidence, in that the claim depends on the discography being complete (not including re-issue material on compilations). Completeness cannot usually be proved - it could only be disproved if somebody turned up with e.g. a 1930s recording, though folklorists would be pretty amazed if that happened. So .. is it that you want me to add new references to those facts established in the article? Or is there something else about all his recordings dating from the last ten years of his life that I need to establish? Monxton (talk) 23:59, 31 August 2020 (UTC)
- I have resolved all but two of the "citation needed" annotations. The remaining two can't be dealt with until I get a response to points 2 and 4 above. Point 3 also remains open, though you didn't annotate that section. I also reverted your change from the English phrase "at the age of" to an American equivalent. I thought that was the point of the {{Use British English}} tag? Monxton (talk) 05:06, 4 September 2020 (UTC)

Replies:

I've added "citation needed" tags to indicate where you should add a citation for the information being given in that sentence.
I only added that tag because the word "labourer" is in quotes. That one fact needs a cite. If it's the same cite (footnote 4) as for the information in the rest of the sentence, then just move the cite to the end of the sentence.
A cite at the end of a line indicates that it covers the facts in that line. But below you have one or more completely uncited sentences. If need be, repeat the same cite, but please don't leave lines of print without any cite at all.
The whole paragraph is uncited, which does not satisfy Rule D2. You could satisfy this rule by citing just the first sentence in this paragraph. Yoninah (talk) 22:08, 20 September 2020 (UTC)

OK, I have resolved all the issues AFAIK.

To me the duplicate citations look like unnecessary clutter, but I do want to reach consensus. You did not reply to my request for a reference to show that your placement choice is policy, not just personal preference. I think the existing citations were already "close to" the facts they supported, as Citing sources#Types of citation demands.

I also note that the "one inline citation per paragraph" guidance of Rule D2 expressly refers to itself as a rule of thumb, or "a principle with broad application that is not intended to be strictly accurate or reliable for every situation". But heigh-ho.

Thanks again for taking the trouble to review the article. Monxton (talk) 14:24, 22 September 2020 (UTC)

Sorry that I missed something in that wall of text you put up. I am not responsible for the vague wording of WP:DYKSG#D2 but I have always interpreted it to require at least one cite per paragraph or per chart. If you don't like the look of duplicate cites within a paragraph, you can always remove them after the main-page appearance, but they will be required if you nominate the article for GA. It is also my understanding that if you put something in quotes, meaning that you lifted it from a source, then you need to cite the source.
The article looks good now. Offline hook refs verified and cited inline. Good to go. Yoninah (talk) 19:21, 22 September 2020 (UTC)