- The following discussion is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was: promoted by BlueMoonset (talk) 20:44, 16 December 2012 (UTC)
Maude Stanley edit
- ... that philosopher Bertrand Russell's "stern and gloomy Aunt Maude"'s experience with girls on the street led her to write the Club for Working Girls?
Created/expanded by Surtsicna (talk). Self nom at 09:52, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
size age and hook check out - good to go. paraphrasing tool all ok. Casliber (talk · contribs) 11:44, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
Replaced in discussion stage as hook fact is not mentioned in the text. Espresso Addict (talk) 15:08, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
- Hi! It is mentioned in the text, though it wasn't as obvious as it is now because the title of the text wasn't mentioned. It now reads: "...she started concentrating on youth work,[2] writing The Club for Working Girls, the first text about young women's club, in 1890,[1] and taking a life-long interest in the welfare of working teenaged girls.[2] She started opening night schools and clubs for girls, and set out to reach young men and women on the streets and in the courtyards by talking to them, playing cards and gambling." Is it more clear now? Surtsicna (talk) 15:35, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
- This is an interesting article but I think the hook fact could still do with some clarification, both in the hook and the article. "Girls on the street" implies prostitutes or the destitute, but the clubs seem to have been for employed working-class women: "domestic servants, dressmakers, shop assistants, or factory hands", according to ODNB, which has some more information if you are able to access it. By the way, do you have a reference for the 1832 birth? ODNB states May 1833 and the Smith essay also has 1833. Espresso Addict (talk) 18:41, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
- I know that "Girls on the street" implies prostitutes. In fact, the intent was to make the hook 'hooky' while keeping it factually accurate. "Girls on the street" is indeed a euphemism sometimes used to denote prostitutes, but doesn't have to mean (and normally doesn't mean) anything more than interacting with young women in a public way or road - which is what the article goes on to explain. A hook such as "that playing cards and chatting to employed working-class women led Bertrand Russell's "stern and gloomy Aunt Maude" to write the Club for Working Girls" would be rather clumsy and unhooky, don't you think? Now, it wouldn't be okay for the hook to mistate the article's content (not least because it's against the rules), but I don't think it mistates it; am I wrong? It says that she interacted with girls and that she did that on the street. A reader might assume it's referring to prostitutes but that's got more to do with his or her dirty mind than with the hook itself, doesn't it? As for the date of birth, I am not actually sure. Russell states she was born in 1832, but it is entirely possible that ODNB is right and I might just go with that. Surtsicna (talk) 13:11, 13 December 2012 (UTC)
- I assume from the above-discussion there will be a suggested alternative hook. If not, I have to say the hook as stands is bad and clunky grammar, clunky punctuation structure with the possessive case of Aunt Maude. "..philosopher Bertrand Russell's "stern and gloomy Aunt Maude"'s experience.." is not good. — Maile (talk) 15:27, 13 December 2012 (UTC)
- I too noticed that the grammar could've been better. I was considering changing the hook to: "that the experience with girls on the street led the philosopher Bertrand Russell's "stern and gloomy Aunt Maude" to write the Club for Working Girls?" Would that be better? Thanks for getting involved! Surtsicna (talk) 15:33, 13 December 2012 (UTC)
I'm willing to go with this now; the minor changes to the article sentence flow have clarified what "girls on the street" is meant to refer to. (I haven't re-checked the sources &c in detail.) I prefer the reordered hook, with some minor edits: "that her experiences with girls on the street led philosopher Bertrand Russell's "stern and gloomy Aunt Maude" to write the Club for Working Girls?" Espresso Addict (talk) 15:43, 13 December 2012 (UTC)
- Sounds perfect! Thanks for all your help! (I forgot to mention that the reason I included Bertrand Russell's description of his aunt was to make the reader doubt that she worked with prostitutes, in case the reader got that idea in the first place, and thus lead him or her to read the article and learn about her.) Surtsicna (talk) 15:50, 13 December 2012 (UTC)
