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Template:Did you know nominations/Macuto Bay raid

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The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by SL93 (talk) 05:21, 13 July 2020 (UTC)

DYK toolbox

Macuto Bay raid

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  • ... that an American sought donations from Venezuelan migrants to fund his attempted invasion into the country? Source: "You are strongly encouraged to quote the source text supporting each hook" (and [link] the source, or cite it briefly without using citation templates)
    • ALT1:... that an American claimed he sought donations from Venezuelan migrants to fund his attempted invasion into the country? Source: "Goudreau said he never received a penny from the Guaidó team and instead the Venezuelan soldiers he was advising had to scrounge for donations from Venezuelan migrants driving for car share service Uber in Colombia." (AP [1])
  • Reviewed: WYCB
  • Comment: Note that there's a potentially controversial move discussion ongoing. Move discussion closed -- reviewer Bri

Created by Kingsif (talk). Self-nominated at 16:37, 8 May 2020 (UTC).

  • Comment This event is so bizarre that I'm confident that there are plenty of alternative hooks that can be considered, if any user disagrees with the current one. --Jamez42 (talk) 12:57, 21 May 2020 (UTC)
Yes, agreed. We have to find a better one. --cyrfaw (talk) 19:41, 21 May 2020 (UTC)
Remember it has to be neutral and indisputable. Kingsif (talk) 22:58, 21 May 2020 (UTC)
Noted. --cyrfaw (talk) 11:15, 26 May 2020 (UTC)
General: Article is new enough and long enough
Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems
Hook: Hook has been verified by provided inline citation
QPQ: Done.

Overall: Reviewer's notes – Newness OK, created May 5 and nominated May 8 · Length OK, 51 kB >1,500 · Sourcing: 141 sources nearly one per sentence, no controversial statements or quotes unsourced · Passes Earwig's copyvio detector · QPQ good, WYCB promoted by Yoninah 12 January · Hook cited to Time after discussion 27 May

See comments above. One might note that the claimed seized condoms could be considered military purpose, as are sometimes used to prevent water from entering gun barrels. ☆ Bri (talk) 01:03, 26 May 2020 (UTC)
I note that the move discussion closed, but there is an open RfC on the talkpage of neutrality in the section Analysis especially about the use of the term "coup attempt", and the section is still marked POV. I don't see an intractable problem here, and consensus appears to have formed around "keep and rework". Not a showsotpper for DYK in my opinion, in fact more readers might help to reformulate it as requested. ☆ Bri (talk) 01:25, 26 May 2020 (UTC)
Proposed ALT1 to ensure NPOV in the hook. ☆ Bri (talk) 01:33, 26 May 2020 (UTC)
Thanks, Bri, ALT1 is fine (and such a minor change I don't think we need another reviewer). The sources do get mixed up - did you fix it in the article as well, or should I do that? Kingsif (talk) 04:47, 26 May 2020 (UTC)
I did not edit the article. ☆ Bri (talk) 15:35, 26 May 2020 (UTC)
@Bri: The article is using the AP article, but at the AP rather than TIME. Is the hook good and everything? Kingsif (talk) 16:36, 26 May 2020 (UTC)
I don't think they are the same story. I referenced AP May 4 by Goodman and Smith (via Time). Don't see that same AP story in the article. Citation for the sentence Goudreau stated the operation was forced to rely on "donations from Venezuelan migrants driving for car share service Uber in Colombia" because he was not paid by Guaidó's team is dated May 6 and doesn't mention migrants. ☆ Bri (talk) 23:42, 26 May 2020 (UTC)
@Bri: Yes - they used the same headline - changed it now. Kingsif (talk) 01:08, 27 May 2020 (UTC)
Looks good, I marked this as passing the DYK criteria. ☆ Bri (talk) 02:06, 27 May 2020 (UTC)
Thanks --cyrfaw (talk) 11:18, 27 May 2020 (UTC)
  • @Kingsif: Thanks for the page history. Actually, I'm now searching on the Operation Gideon history and I see you in the May 6th edits; I was looking on an earlier page. Restoring tick. Yoninah (talk) 11:16, 9 June 2020 (UTC)
  • @Kingsif: Back again. Neither footnotes 8 or 49 verify the information that's cited to them, which is the hook fact. There's also a tag on text under Colombia. Yoninah (talk) 14:25, 9 June 2020 (UTC)
  • @Yoninah: That would be the link the reviewer told me to replace above. I'd have to find the edit to see which ref was removed and check if it was actually correct. The article may have been updated since the start of May, too. Kingsif (talk) 23:02, 9 June 2020 (UTC)
  • Kingsif, it's been a while. If the footnotes don't support the hook fact, then either this needs a new hook dependent on different facts, or new sourcing that support the hook fact. Thanks for taking care of this. BlueMoonset (talk) 15:14, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
  • I think a change of hook is in order, if there's now only one source (sensitive topic). It's not the simplest article to write an appropriate hook for, I just thought the American angle was interesting. I'll see what I can do, but may withdraw if there's nothing both interesting and water-tight. Kingsif (talk) 15:55, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
  • @Kingsif: it has been a week since your last post. Are you suggesting a new hook or withdrawing this nomination? Thanks, Yoninah (talk) 19:57, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
@Yoninah: Can I phone a friend? @Jamez42 and ReyHahn: do you guys have any hook suggestions? Kingsif (talk) 19:58, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
Jamez42's suggestions from the talk page here: Kingsif (talk) 16:03, 9 July 2020 (UTC)
  • ALT3 ... that Jordan Goudreau cited Alexander the Great's Battle of Gaugamela as an inspiration to invade Venezuela? Source: "When he was pressed by Poleo to explain why launching an amphibious operation across open waters instead of attempting to infiltrate via the border with Colombia, Goudreau replied: 'Are you familiar with Alexander the Great? The Battle of Gaugamela. Completely outnumbered. He struck to the heart of the enemy, and he won.'" (Source: Bellingcat [2])
  • Is this in the article? --evrik (talk) 19:24, 9 July 2020 (UTC)
  • It is not. @Jamez42: Has the Alexander the Great mention been removed from the article? Kingsif (talk) 23:46, 9 July 2020 (UTC)
@Kingsif: I don't think it has been included in the article, unlike the statement about the condoms, which I'm almost certain that it was removed. I'm not sure if adding it would make the hook eligible, but it's understandable that it also needs more support. Toi other editor, like I said in the talk page, feel free to change the grammar or phrasing if needed. --Jamez42 (talk) 17:59, 11 July 2020 (UTC)
@Jamez42: Thanks for the clarification - to be eligible, the information needs to be in the article. It seems to be a real interview, so sourcing for this one (unlike the condoms) is no issue. I can see about adding this. Kingsif (talk) 19:14, 11 July 2020 (UTC)
  • ALT4 ... that after Operation Gideon, a failed invasion in Venezuela, there were condoms among the reported seized equipment? Source:Mientras mira algunas fotos más del equipo capturado por los miembros de Operación Gedeón, ¿hay 7 condones entre las capturas? (Alberto News [3])
Review needed for alt hooks 2-4. Kingsif (talk) 16:05, 9 July 2020 (UTC)
ALT4 is probably the most unusual option here and perhaps the most attention grabbing. It's cited inline; assuming good faith on the Alberto News source (although the Google Translate translation seems to check out) since the NY Mag link doesn't mention it. Rest of the review per above. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 23:13, 9 July 2020 (UTC)
  • I'm surprised you chose that one, Narutolovehinata5. It's just a cheap shot and the grammar isn't even correct. ALT2 and 3 are much better hooks. Yoninah (talk) 23:39, 9 July 2020 (UTC)
  • I guess a promoter can pick, if the review is covering all of them? ALT3 not currently in the article, though. Kingsif (talk) 23:46, 9 July 2020 (UTC)
If we don't use ALT4, I'd prefer ALT2. ALT3 is a bit more on the obscure side since while Alexander is well-known, the battle is probably not so much outside of people interested in history. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 23:59, 9 July 2020 (UTC)
  • Not-ready tick. Yoninah (talk) 00:00, 10 July 2020 (UTC)
  • I agree that ALT2 is the best idea. It actually says something about the raid and is well worded. ALT2 hook ref verified and cited inline.
  • @Kingsif: the article has a "failed verification" tag and the Analysis section has a big template on it. Is this ready yet? Do you want to comment out sentences/sections until after the main page appearance? Yoninah (talk) 00:19, 10 July 2020 (UTC)
  • @Yoninah: Yes and I have done so - I'm glad it's also returned to stability, hopefully discussions can be concluded on the analysis. The failed verification sentence has been removed. Kingsif (talk) 00:35, 10 July 2020 (UTC)
  • Approving ALT2. Yoninah (talk) 00:38, 10 July 2020 (UTC)
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