Template:Did you know nominations/List of works by Georgette Heyer

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by 97198 (talk) 10:37, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

List of works by Georgette Heyer, The Black Moth edit

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~~... that Georgette Heyer's first novel, The Black Moth, was based on a story she wrote for her haemophiliac younger brother?~~

ALT1:... that Georgette Heyer's final novel, My Lord John, went unfinished and was published posthumously?
Reviewed: The Mill (Burne-Jones painting), Bettina Burr

Created by Ruby2010 (talk). Self nominated at 00:34, 20 January 2015 (UTC).

Comment: After nominating the list, I decided to make this a double nomination with The Black Moth (which I expanded 5x). Hopefully I didn't screw anything up when editing the template!

I've fixed the error in the template. I should also note that The Black Moth is indeed 5x expanded, despite what DYKcheck says: it started at 571 prose characters, where it's been since September 2013. That requires a minimum of 2855 prose characters post-expansion, and it now has more than enough at 3035. BlueMoonset (talk) 20:28, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

I will review these two, as I'm familiar with Heyer's work. It might take a little while, as I have several comments on a quick scan of The Black Moth. A quick first comment: is it possible to rephrase the hook so as to make it clear this is a list, not the biographical article on Heyer (which is an FA, as I recall)? Espresso Addict (talk) 19:09, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

Ok, doing The Black Moth first. The length & expansion (5.3x) are indeed ok, the timeframe is fine and the article is not a stub. The hook is short enough and adequately hooky; the "fact" was well known to me, and is also supported by the ODNB. The content is reasonably neutral though I'm a bit worried by the weight put on the comments by Mari Ness at Tor.com -- I'm not sure how reliable this site is as a source for historical romance, and there's the implied assertion (otherwise unreferenced) that the book was cowritten by Heyer's father which needs a proper reliable reference. I feel the expansion, though within the rules, is a bit perfunctory, probably because it was, as you state, an afterthought; I have some suggestions for additional material that could readily be added and will put them on the talk page. There are some problems with the existing material which badly needs editing; in particular the summary needs rewriting and referencing, and there are problems with the character list. I am also worried by a couple of instances of something that is on the edge of close paraphrasing; I will put the specific instances on the talk page. The QPQ remains to be done. I'll come back later with comments on the list of works. Espresso Addict (talk) 20:55, 12 February 2015 (UTC)
Re List of works by Georgette Heyer: The text portion is long enough; date moved from userspace is ok; well referenced; does not appear to be reusing content from Georgette Heyer. The text appears of adequate standard for DYK in terms of neutrality/balance/completeness. There is one slight problem with the paraphrasing: "saturnine male lead", which is quotation from Hodge (and is it even true of Black Moth? It's the anti-hero who is archetypally saturnine), but in view of the problems I detected in the other article I have checked sources available online reasonably carefully without finding any other issues. The Featured List review might conceivably lead to stability problems, and in particular it would be wise to resolve whether the historical romance table is to be split by period or not before running. Otherwise this article seems fine. QPQ also needed for this one. Espresso Addict (talk) 01:17, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

Comment: Hodge uses the phrase in The Private World of Georgette Heyer regarding The Black Moth: "Here, already, are the saturnine male lead" (p. 17); I'd advise quoting the words. (If I recall correctly, "saturnine" is a descriptor used by Heyer herself in her novels.) BlueMoonset (talk) 18:20, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

Turning it into a quotation would be a good idea; "saturnine" is such a pungent word it inevitably leads to the feel of too-close-paraphrasing, even on its own. Re Black Moth (if you happen to know it), the question is who is the male lead -- Carstares or Belmanoir? Unfortunately my copy of Hodge is 500 miles away in storage so I can't check who she's referring to! It probably doesn't matter in the list article if it were turned into a direct quotation. Espresso Addict (talk) 19:00, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

Hodge doesn't say who she thinks it is. Sorry. She's talking about elements in the first book that would recur in later ones. BlueMoonset (talk) 19:19, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

Thanks to both of you for weighing in here! I plan to work on these two articles some more this weekend. (EA, you are correct that my expansion of The Black Moth was more of an afterthought - I'm aware it needs a lot more work! My first focus is the list article, but I'll jump into Moth with any remaining time. RL is just keeping me busy lately). Thanks! Ruby 2010/2013 05:25, 14 February 2015 (UTC)

Just adding note that I plan to work on Moth this weekend, with possible spillover during week. Will report back here once I think it's worth looking at again. Thanks, Ruby 2010/2013 15:39, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

Ruby2010, just a reminder that since the hook includes two articles, you'll need to provide two QPQs, the first of which I see you've just posted above. Thanks. BlueMoonset (talk) 21:48, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

Sorry, I wasn't aware of the second QPQ requirement. I have completed this now. I've also finished updating The Black Moth based on everyone's suggestions, so hopefully this is just about ready to go (I know it's been here for a while!). Ruby 2010/2013 03:05, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

I've (Ruby) suggested another hook:

ALT2:... that the works of Georgette Heyer include her first novel The Black Moth (1921), which she based on a story she wrote for her haemophiliac younger brother?

QPQ now done. The alternative hook meets the guidelines and the added date checks out. I've struck the original suggestion for clarity. List of works by Georgette Heyer has been featured (congratulations!) and so the stability issue is therefore gone. The small issue with the paraphrase is now fixed. The Black Moth is much improved, but there's still a couple of small bits of close paraphrase, especially the sentence with "Anna Faktorovich asserts..." which doesn't look to have been edited. Espresso Addict (talk) 15:45, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Per User:Espresso Addict, the Alt2 looks good, and other requirements are met; author plans to work on close paraphrasing, and in part, DYK is an opportunity for "many eyes" to work on these items: the problems are not overwhelming, and the author is still refining the article, Sadads (talk) 12:26, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Sadads, I'm sorry, but "author plans to work on close paraphrasing" is never a valid reason for approving. Close paraphrasing is one of those bright lines: articles should not have any close paraphrasing when featured on the main page, so we need to make sure they have none at the point that they are approved for DYK. I appreciate that you have worked on addressing some of the identified paraphrasing, but we need Espresso Addict to confirm that the instances he has found have all been taken care of.

On another matter, I'd like to see ALT2 modified slightly to use "based on" (from the original hook) rather than "took from"; I think it's a better wording. BlueMoonset (talk) 14:31, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

@BlueMoonset and Espresso Addict: Sorry didn't phrase that correctly: I fixed the close paraphrasing you identified, it wasn't that bad in that it was mostly factual items that can't be reframed easily (though should have been quotation), and the author plans on working on the article more, thus without more concerns, its a pass. I like the mod to Alt2 from BlueMoonset as well! Sadads (talk) 14:38, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Thanks to everyone for weighing in here and also for editing the article. I've been a bit distracted in real life and missed Expresso's latest comment about the close paraphrasing. It looks like Sadads, helpful as always, copyedited the article and addressed that issue. (I should note that I take plagiarism concerns seriously and don't think I'd ever been accused of that before, so that definitely isn't typical of articles I edit!). I have also tweaked the ALT2 hook per Blue's suggestion. Let me know if anything else is needed before this can get promoted. Thanks again (sorry for the brevity, I'm typing with my phone). Ruby 2010/2013 17:57, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

I've just had a go at the offending sentence too, and I think between all of us the article's now ok. (By the way I'd distinguish plagiarism from unintentional somewhat-too-close paraphrasing, which is what's been the problem here.) I like BlueMoonset's suggestion with the alt hook (now incorporated). Espresso Addict (talk) 18:40, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Thanks Expresso! Ruby 2010/2013 20:41, 7 March 2015 (UTC)