Template:Did you know nominations/Le Building

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Cwmhiraeth (talk) 05:26, 25 July 2017 (UTC)

Le Building

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• ... that the 2005 French animated short film Le Building was one of the first student films from Gobelins School of the Image to use computer animation? Source: The Best of Gobelins Eric Riewer (October 15, 2010). "The Best of Gobelins Animation School". Animatricks.
  • ALT1:... that the 2005 French animated short film Le Building has been compared to the works of Rube Goldberg and Chuck Jones? Source #1: Leskosky, Richard J. (October 1, 2006). "Animation Fest Bigger, Better Than Ever at 30". The News-Gazette. Champaign-Urbana.

Source #2: Animation World Network staff (September 27, 2006). "2006 Award Winners". Animation World Network

Source #3: Movers & Shakers - Le Building: Singing in the Shower Can Be Hazardous to Your Health". 3D World. No. 77. Bath, Somerset: Future plc. May 2006.

Moved to mainspace by Jpcase (talk). Self-nominated at 22:07, 12 July 2017 (UTC).

Substantial, interesting article, makes me want to see the film, thank you! Good sources, offline sources accepted AGF, no copyvio obvious. - Hooks: I struck the ALT because it works only for people who know the mentioned names, and for a global general audience, there may be not enough. The original mentions a student product, but not that it achieved international fame. If you want to reach readers who don't know that already, you have to say something about it. "computer animation" doesn't need a link, - don't distract people by links other than the topic. Please word an ALT2, and if it still contains the term, drop "animated" from the film description, we don't need it twice. - Article: The amount of referencing is a bit overwhelming ;) No fact needs more than three refs, imo. For the red-link people: do they have articles in a different Wikipedia? If yes, use {{ill}}, as for Pozla. - Please say a bit more about publishers of the external link, and format the titles consistently. - Impressed, this should be a GA eventually. - You seem to be relatively new to DYK, and don't have to review yet, is that right? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:27, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

@Gerda Arendt: Thank you so much for the kind comments and for the suggestions! I'll definitely prune some of those sources down - it may take me a few days before I can do so though.

Pozla is the only one of the filmmakers who has an article on the French-language wiki. I just created the English-language articles for Perifel and Staphylas earlier this week and hope to do the same for the other three filmmakers as well, so long as sufficient sources can be found.

As for the hook, I originally planned on saying something about how the film was praised for its blending of 2D / 3D animation - but that probably wouldn't qualify as neutral, would it? You're right that I'm relatively new to DYK, so I'm not exactly sure what aspects of the article would be best to focus on. I'll give it some thought - let me know if you have any suggestions! :) Jpcase (talk) 21:28, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

For DYK, a basic attractive thing is better than something special sophisticated. You have one line to make a reader want to find out more. Once in the article, they can find the specials. How about saying that some of the students who created the film went on to win awards in the field? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:37, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

@Gerda Arendt: Hmm...that's an idea. I'd kind of prefer not to emphasize two of the filmmakers, while leaving out the other three, but like you said, interested readers can find out more details in the article itself. So how would you feel about - "... that the 2005 French short film Le Building launched the careers of two Annie Award-recognized DreamWorks animators?" Would something like that make for a good ALT? Jpcase (talk) 23:31, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

Or, a slight variation: ... that two Annie Award-recognized DreamWorks animators, Pierre Perifel, and Olivier Staphylas, collaborated on their student thesis project, a 2005 French short film called Le Building? Jpcase (talk) 00:09, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

Thank you! Playing with it:

ALT4: ... that the short film Le Building, shown at the Annecy International Animated Film Festival, was a thesis project of five students, two of which became Annie Award-recognized animators?

ALT5: ... that the short film Le Building, shown at the Annecy International Animated Film Festival, was a thesis project of five students, two of which became award-winning animators? - Wording in better English welcome. I agree that we shouldn't single out individual artists, perhaps not even a company. - Different question: can we help the school article? The name seems a strange translation of the French, and refs are missing. Perhaps better use the original French name in the article? - Asking LouisAlain for help. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 05:54, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

The term "building" was very much in use some decades ago after it replaced le fr:gratte-ciel (after skyscrapper) but nowadays the word tour has become ubiquitous like for instance la Tour Montparnasse or les tours de La Défense. "Building" is no longer much used in French (although everyone knows what it refers to). Maybe did the authors choose to name their short film Le Building (and not "the Building") in order to give both an air of nostalgia and eeriness as well as winking to the non French speaking world in the international movie industry. The article is very well referenced but there are indeed very few external links. I added one though. LouisAlain (talk) 10:51, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

LouisAlain, sorry, I was not clear. I meant the name of the school, Gobelins School of the Image, a translation (no source given) of "Gobelins / L'École de L'Image", a translation that appears nowhere else in the article, but instead "Gobelins, the school of visual communication" (also no source). The first translation makes no sense to me. I'd go for moving the article, but to what? French? It was Gobelins (school of image) once, better than the present. - The article is also tagged. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:01, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

Well it only goes to show how slow I am at the uptake... I've added 2 refs to the Gobelins school of images in case that's what was missing; Not sure how you expect me to help though. LouisAlain (talk) 19:41, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

Thank you for the refs! I expect you to say if Gobelins L'École de L'Image should be translated at all, and if yes, how? And if Gobelins (school of ...) then what in the parentheses? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:53, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

@Gerda Arendt:, thanks for the additional ALTS, and @LouisAlain:, thanks for your attention to the article! :)

I'm happy doing pretty much anything for the hook - although if we're going to mention that the film was screened at Annecy, then I'd recommend specifying that it was made for that festival; otherwise, it may seem arbitrary to single out Annecy among all of the other festivals that have also "screened" the film.

Oh, and a minor correction: Perifel is the only one of the filmmakers who has won an Annie Award. Staphylas has been nominated. That's why I've been careful to use the term "Annie Award-recognized", rather than "Annie Award-winning".

I agree that the article for Gobelins is in poor shape, and that the English translation of its name sounds rather awkward. While writing the article for Le Building, I wavered back and forth a bit on whether to use the original French name of the school instead, but went with the English, simply because that's what was already in use on Wiki. I may not have the time to make substantial improvements to the Gobelins article myself, but I would certainly support moving the article to Gobelins, l'École de l'image or even just Gobelins (school). It looks like most of the English-language sources either use the French name or simply refer to the school as "Gobelins". Jpcase (talk) 22:33, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

— Preceding unsigned comment added by LouisAlain (talk • contribs) 06:50, 17 July 2017 (UTC)

Thank you for the specifics, how is this:

ALT6: ... that the short film Le Building, first shown at the Annecy International Animated Film Festival, was a thesis project of five students, two of which became award-recognized animators?

ALT7: ... that the short film Le Building was a thesis project of five students to be shown at the Annecy International Animated Film Festival?

I'd not use the clunky English name of the school in the article. It was moved! In the lead, you could pipe link to it, Gobelins, later, you could use it full in French and provide a decent translation or explanation. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:25, 17 July 2017 (UTC)

@Gerda Arendt: I've just finished pruning those sources down a bit. There's still a lot in use, but no statement should have more than three now - so hopefully that helps.

I'll definitely switch to using the French name of Gobelins in the article for Le Building. Question though - what do you think is the proper capitalization of the school's name? I've looked through a few different sources, and none of them seem to agree. For example, this article from Animation World Network calls the school "Gobelins L'Ecole de L'Image". But this brochure from the Future Film Festival calls the school "Gobelins l'ecole de l'image" - which is also how the school is described on the French Wiki [1]. And then Olivier Staphylas' official website [2] calls the school "Gobelins L'Ecole De L'Image". The official logo of the school capitalizes everything (GOBELINS L'ECOLE DE L'IMAGE), so that's no help. @LouisAlain: - I'm noticing that you moved the article for the school to "Gobelins l'Ecole de l'image". Are you able to explain why you went with this particular capitalization?

Anyways, regarding the hook - if we're going to mention Annecy, then personally, I would prefer something like:

ALT8: ...that the short film Le Building, which was made as an opener for the Annecy International Animated Film Festival, was the thesis project of five students, two of whom went on to become Annie Award-recognized animators?

Highlighting that the film was made specifically as an opener for Annecy seems like it would be a little more attention grabbing, than just saying that the film was shown there or even that it premiered there. So how would you feel about going with that? Or would you prefer something else? Jpcase (talk) 20:08, 19 July 2017 (UTC)

I like ALT8, but it's too long, - I don't mean technically, but too many ideas, - please find a way to avoid animation/animators. Playing:

ALT9: ...that the short film Le Building was created as an opener for the Annecy International Animated Film Festival as the thesis project of five students of Gobelins? - For the title, I trust LouisAlain. It's like title/subtitle, - how do we do that? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:06, 19 July 2017 (UTC)

@Gerda Arendt: What exactly do you mean by "title/subtitle"? I trust LouisAlain's judgement as well, as I don't have any familiarity with the French language - but I'm just curious why he / she made the decision that he / she did.

If you want to avoid repeating "animation/animators" in the ALT, then we could go with:

ALT10: ...that the French short film Le Building, which was made as an opener for the Annecy International Animated Film Festival, was the thesis project of five students, two of whom went on to receive award recognition in their field?

But if you want to cut down on the length a bit, then perhaps:

ALT11: ...that the French short film Le Building was the thesis project of five students, two of whom went on to receive award recognition in their field?

Again, I'm not picky about the hook. I just appreciate your support for the article! :) Personally, I'm not sure that the film's association with Annecy is going to catch a lot of readers attention - so that's why I decided to cut that part out in favor of the awards information for ALT11. But I'll happily go with whatever you think is best. As mentioned, I'm quite new to DYK, so I'm still figuring out this whole process and don't really know what I'm doing. But hopefully we can settle on a good hook! Thanks for the help! Jpcase (talk) 23:08, 19 July 2017 (UTC)

Name: The name of the school is Gobelins. The "subtitle" or explanation is "L'École de l'image". In music, we enclose the "subtitle" in commas, when in a sentence, for example Herz und Mund und Tat und Leben, BWV 147, while no comma is needed in the infobox or logo where design separates the two clearly enough.

all hooks without strike. I confess that I don't like "two of whom" ;) - You can strike more, and the prep-building people can choose if more than one is left. (2 now, ALT9 and ALT10, ALT11 is missing "animation".) I'll watch for more ALTs ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:15, 20 July 2017 (UTC)

@Gerda Arendt: My concern isn't about commas, it's about capitalization. I'm not sure how this works in French, but in English, "Gobelins, L'École de l'image" looks very strange - either "L'École" shouldn't be capitalized or "l'image" should be. Looking at how the school is referred to in the beginning of various Gobelins films, "l'école de l'image" seems to be most common, and again, this is how the school is referred to on the French wiki. But there doesn't seem to be any official standard. So...this really isn't too important, haha. Moving the page so that the French name is used was the right call - how we capitalize the letters is barely relevant. I might move the page so that it uses different capitalization later on, but let's not worry about that right now. :)

My mistake on ALT11 - so here's one last option:

ALT12: ...that the French animated short film Le Building was the thesis project of five students, two of whom went on to receive award recognition in their field?

I'd be fine with ALT9 as well, although the "as/as" reads a little funny to me. On the other hand, I can understand your dislike for "two of whom", so I'm not sure which hook would be best. Jpcase (talk) 13:26, 20 July 2017 (UTC)

P.S. Actually, looking back at ALT7, I think that one could potentially work with a little tweaking - so how would you feel about:

ALT13: ...that the French short film Le Building was created as a thesis project by five students to be shown as an opener at the Annecy International Animated Film Festival? :::::Jpcase (talk) 13:35, 20 July 2017 (UTC)

2 more then, choice of 4 for the prep builder. I prefer ALT9, naturally ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:41, 20 July 2017 (UTC)

@Gerda Arendt: As a final possibility, we could go in a totally different direction and just say:

ALT14: ...that the French short film Le Building uses a combination of 2D and 3D animation?

Perhaps that's too simple, but it's one more idea. I'll be happy with anything, and like you said, we can let the prep builder decide. Thanks again for all of the help! :) Jpcase (talk) 14:09, 20 July 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for still thinking, but that one - for my taste - lacks a human touch. If a prep-builder wants that and no other, they shoud ping me ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:30, 20 July 2017 (UTC)