- The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was: promoted by Cielquiparle (talk) 13:30, 17 January 2023 (UTC)
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Kalyani Sen
,_with_Second_Officer_Kalyani_Sen,_WRINS_at_Rosyth_during_their_two_month_study_visit_to_Britain.jpg)
Sen (left)
... that in 1945, Kalyani Sen became the first Indian service woman to visit the UK?Source: 1945...The first Indian service woman who visited the UK was second officer Kalyani Sen [1]- Reviewed: Delsworth Buckingham
Created by Whispyhistory (talk). Self-nominated at 11:28, 19 November 2022 (UTC).
Article is long enough and new enough. While some sources require subscription, no sourcing, copyright, or content issues were found. Hook has good source and meets length and format criterion. QPQ is done. Image is a work of the British government published before 1 June 1957 so it is in Public Domain; rollover tag is done.--Orygun (talk) 06:15, 21 November 2022 (UTC)
- @Whispyhistory: I don't think this needs to hold up the DYK, but there's a full color version of the same photo at https://wrens.org.uk/womens-royal-indian-naval-service-established-during-ww2. Wouldn't it make more sense to use that intead of the black-and-white version you've got now? -- RoySmith (talk) 18:30, 23 November 2022 (UTC)
- @RoySmith: good find... yes... I saw that, but is that an edited image? @Philafrenzy:, who may know how this works. Whispyhistory (talk) 19:35, 23 November 2022 (UTC)
- These are clearly the same image, down to the piece of dirt on the negative. The question is, which is derived from which? It's possible it's a B&W original that was colorized. But, there was color film in 1945, and the color tints in this look to me like prints I've seen from that era. In which case, somebody pulled a B&W print from it. Honestly, I'd just be flipping a coin if I had to guess which is true. Anyway, just wanted to make sure you were aware of the color version. And as I said, whichever way you go, it shouldn't hold up somebody promoting this. -- RoySmith (talk) 22:26, 23 November 2022 (UTC)
- @RoySmith: Sure, it is okay with me but I don't know how to change it...and thank you again. Whispyhistory (talk) 06:01, 24 November 2022 (UTC)
- It's colourised, and cropped too. Here is the original. Click the brackets on the page to enlarge. We shouldn't use a colour image unless the original was in colour. Philafrenzy (talk) 09:28, 24 November 2022 (UTC)
- Since anyone can crop, I have uploaded a version less cropped so it is clearer that the Indian woman is wearing a sari. Philafrenzy (talk) 09:39, 24 November 2022 (UTC)
- @Philafrenzy: Thank you kindly. Looks good. Whispyhistory (talk) 13:40, 24 November 2022 (UTC)
@Philafrenzy: Thanks for the upload. I see that the "IWM" (Imperial War Museum, I assume) watermark has been cropped out of the lower-right. Is that permissible vis-a-vis commons:Commons:Watermarks? I've added a query mark because this touches on copyright, which we do need to resolve before promoting. -- RoySmith (talk) 15:39, 24 November 2022 (UTC)]
- It's a false claim to copyright which is common with museums and galleries. It's Royal Navy, as they say, and therefore originally Crown Copyright, which has expired in this case. See the licence on Commons. Philafrenzy (talk) 15:47, 24 November 2022 (UTC)
- @Philafrenzy: Thank you kindly. Looks good. Whispyhistory (talk) 13:40, 24 November 2022 (UTC)
- Since anyone can crop, I have uploaded a version less cropped so it is clearer that the Indian woman is wearing a sari. Philafrenzy (talk) 09:39, 24 November 2022 (UTC)
- It's colourised, and cropped too. Here is the original. Click the brackets on the page to enlarge. We shouldn't use a colour image unless the original was in colour. Philafrenzy (talk) 09:28, 24 November 2022 (UTC)
- @RoySmith: Sure, it is okay with me but I don't know how to change it...and thank you again. Whispyhistory (talk) 06:01, 24 November 2022 (UTC)
- These are clearly the same image, down to the piece of dirt on the negative. The question is, which is derived from which? It's possible it's a B&W original that was colorized. But, there was color film in 1945, and the color tints in this look to me like prints I've seen from that era. In which case, somebody pulled a B&W print from it. Honestly, I'd just be flipping a coin if I had to guess which is true. Anyway, just wanted to make sure you were aware of the color version. And as I said, whichever way you go, it shouldn't hold up somebody promoting this. -- RoySmith (talk) 22:26, 23 November 2022 (UTC)
- @RoySmith: good find... yes... I saw that, but is that an edited image? @Philafrenzy:, who may know how this works. Whispyhistory (talk) 19:35, 23 November 2022 (UTC)
@Whispyhistory and Orygun: Are there no more interesting facts to write about? Kingsif (talk) 04:39, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
- Am not aware of any.--Orygun (talk) 06:40, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
- Put a feminist spin on it that ".... Kalyani Sen broke down barriers by acting on stage, speaking up for the participation of women in sport, and serving in the Women's Royal Indian Naval Service during the Second World War". Incidentally, whatever the sources may say, I wonder if she really was the first to visit the UK? It depends how you define "Indian" and "service woman". Philafrenzy (talk) 10:32, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
- If we knew on which side she spoke with respect to India not participating in wars, we could contrast her support for that proposition with her later service, or, if she was against the motion, that she argued against it and followed through by being one of the first Indian women to serve. Philafrenzy (talk) 10:36, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
- Thanks @Philafrenzy:... not a lot written about her other than what is in the hook, although she is mentioned in several memoirs. I'll investigate the All-India Inter-University Debates, where the answer may lie. Whispyhistory (talk) 09:31, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
- If we knew on which side she spoke with respect to India not participating in wars, we could contrast her support for that proposition with her later service, or, if she was against the motion, that she argued against it and followed through by being one of the first Indian women to serve. Philafrenzy (talk) 10:36, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
- Put a feminist spin on it that ".... Kalyani Sen broke down barriers by acting on stage, speaking up for the participation of women in sport, and serving in the Women's Royal Indian Naval Service during the Second World War". Incidentally, whatever the sources may say, I wonder if she really was the first to visit the UK? It depends how you define "Indian" and "service woman". Philafrenzy (talk) 10:32, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
- You have sufficient sources to support this, don't you? ALT1
".... Kalyani Sen (pictured) broke down barriers for Indian women by acting on stage, speaking up for the participation of women in sport, and serving in the military during the Second World War?Philafrenzy (talk) 11:12, 17 December 2022 (UTC)- Sure.. sounds good and @Philafrenzy: thank you. @Orygun:, would you mind checking ALT1 please? Here are the references [2] and [3]. Whispyhistory (talk) 11:39, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
- @Whispyhistory and Philafrenzy: I'm not sure it'd be encyclopedic for us to say in wikivoice that a person "broke down barriers". Is there a source we can attribute the statement to? theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/her) 09:42, 6 January 2023 (UTC)
- @Whispyhistory and Philafrenzy:
- Did Whispyhistory find out whether she spoke for or against India taking part in wars? We can construct a hook whether she was for or against but it would help to know how she spoke. Philafrenzy (talk) 10:39, 6 January 2023 (UTC)
- She spoke against the motion that "That India should be no party to future wars". Whispyhistory (talk) 17:24, 6 January 2023 (UTC)
- Sure.. sounds good and @Philafrenzy: thank you. @Orygun:, would you mind checking ALT1 please? Here are the references [2] and [3]. Whispyhistory (talk) 11:39, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
- ALT2
.... that when visiting Britain during the Second World War, Indian naval officer Kalyani Sen (pictured) reported that Indian women were breaking down prejudices against men and women working together by enlisting in the military?Philafrenzy (talk) 17:49, 6 January 2023 (UTC)- The hook is good. Needs review.Whispyhistory (talk) 20:19, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
- The hook (excluding pictured) is over 200 characters long and thus needs to be shortened. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 02:03, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
- The hook is good. Needs review.Whispyhistory (talk) 20:19, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
- ALT2a ... that when visiting Britain during World War Two, naval officer Kalyani Sen (pictured) reported that Indian women were breaking down prejudices against men and women working together by joining the military? Philafrenzy (talk) 10:31, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
Reviewer needed for ALT2a; all previous hooks have been struck. BlueMoonset (talk) 17:10, 14 January 2023 (UTC)
- Confirming ALT2a as properly sourced; length (minus "pictured" as per instructions for counting hooks) is under 200. Mary Mark Ockerbloom (talk) 15:43, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
