Template:Did you know nominations/Julie Ngungwa

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: withdrawn by nominator, closed by Victuallers (talk) 08:49, 3 September 2022 (UTC)

Julie Ngungwa

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Julie Ngungwa (right) at UN ceremony

... that in June, Julie Ngungwa (pictured) became the new governor of the province of Tangayika as the United Nations stabilisation force left? Source: The source is a photo caption but the United Nations is a creditable source and other sources contribute.

** ALT1: ... that the new governor of the province of Tangayika, Julie Ngungwa (pictured), was ceremonially given the keys by Bintou Keita, the head of the United Nations stabilisation force? Source: The source is a photo but the United Nations is a creditable source.

- Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Irene Parlby
- Comment: Not sure its approporiate to include in the article lede that the province of Tangayika is larger than England so feel free to delete it, however its useful to mention here as she leads 3m people in an unstable part of her country. Feel free to improve before its approved.

Created by Victuallers (talk). Self-nominated at 09:40, 22 June 2022 (UTC).

Don't see how this meets the interestingness requirements. I expect such ceremonies are common in places where UN forces are present. Why not write a hook based on accomplishments besides just holding an office. (t · c) buidhe 08:23, 24 June 2022 (UTC)

amazed. The hook has failed to communicate. Imagine if England had been occupied by a UN force of 1000s from a dozen countries including troops and police for years and years - and the UN Deputy General's rep had turned up to say that were withdrawing in the hope that the 100s of people killed in regular massacres might be ending, but they would be in nearby Scotland if required. This happens once in a lifetime, hopefully. Victuallers (talk) 08:34, 24 June 2022 (UTC)

Yes, but the context is not clear in the hook, and hooks should not assume too much knowledge from readers. The fact that the hook has indeed "failed to communicate" probably means that a new hook is needed here. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 12:54, 24 June 2022 (UTC)

Having said that, I think the first hook may have some potential if additional context is given, but I think ALT1 should be dropped. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 00:02, 25 June 2022 (UTC)

..alt2 ... that in June, UN forces left most of the province of Tangayika (ceremony pictured) leaving only two of Julie Ngungwa's territories in the "triangle of death"? Source:triangle of death etc

@Narutolovehinata5: A hook that communicates, I hope, that this isn't routine? Victuallers (talk) 13:21, 27 June 2022 (UTC)

I think ALT2 is better than ALT1. @Buidhe: Thoughts on it? Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 00:12, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

Respectfully, as someone who's been editing on Congo topics and following events in the Congo on and off for several years, UN troops being shuffled around is well, something rather mundane at this point. The DYK itself isn't really about the subject it purports to be (her), I think it would be better to have something more specific to Ngungwa, not events happening around her. -Indy beetle (talk) 15:12, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

@Indy beetle: Respectfully - the hook isnt aimed at you. Your knowledge here is interesting but it doesnt effect the hookiness. It may be passe to you but our average reader wouldnt know that there is a UN force in the DRC, I have been following events in the DRC too for several years and I cannot remember a similar incident. Have I missed several this year? Maybe we can do a hook based on the large number if you have a few refs? As you know the province in question is about the same size as the UK so I'm intrigued to see that they can move UN forces in and out of it routinely. Victuallers (talk) 11:44, 18 July 2022 (UTC)

Seems this nomination is at an impasse. @Buidhe: Can to take another look at this? Or if you're unable to, maybe a new reviewer is needed here? Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 00:24, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

That would be fine! Even if the withdrawals of UN troops do happen routinely then Alt2 still looks hooky to me and Buildhe seemed to agree. Victuallers (talk) 10:56, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

Suggesting an ALT3: ... that the election of Julie Ngungwa (pictured), Ritha Bola and Isabelle Kalenga as Congolese governors in 2021 was seen as significant for gender equality as no women governors had been elected in the previous election? Source: [1] Lajmmoore (talk) 10:16, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

@Lajmmoore: ALT3 is above 200 characters; can it be shortened? Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 10:55, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

ALT3a: ... that the 2021 election of Julie Ngungwa (pictured), and two other women as Congolese governors is significant for gender equality as no women were appointed in the previous election? Source: [2]

Thanks for checking my counting @Narutolovehinata5: I think this is on 200? Lajmmoore (talk) 11:10, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

It's actually 171 characters (excluding pictured) which should make it just fine. The topic is somewhat outside my comfort zone so I won't approve it myself, but I hope either Buidhe or another editor comes along and finishes the review. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 11:25, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

Hello, I carefully read the article and double-checked the DYK criteria. Alt2 looks good to me, and I approve it. I think it is more interesting than Alt3a. Not necessary for DYK (and sorry if it's not relevant; the topic is not familiar to me) but I would love to see more in the article about Julie Ngungwa's political accomplishments. I understand that she hasn't been in office very long, but she did a degree in Political and Administrative Science, and is the President of the Association of Tchoto mothers, and I wonder if there are some examples of community organizing that she's done to change things for the better that could be included in the article. Ruthgrace (talk) 00:27, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

I've reluctantly pulled this nom from prep for a couple of reasons:
- First, I feel ALT2 is confusingly written, in particularly the leaving only two of Julie Ngungwa's territories in the "triangle of death" clause. Ignoring the odd locution that has Ngungwa seeming to own the territories on her own—she's the governor of Tanganyika, so they aren't hers, though she's the chief executive—this seems to contradict the pre-existing Tanganyika Province article, which mentions the so-called "death triangle" of Manono-Mitwaba-Pweto (I found a UN report from 2013, [3], before Katanga was redivided in 2015 and a significant portion becoming Tanganyika). There is, of course, nothing to say that "death triangle" may be overused by UN politicians referring to dangerous areas of Tanganyika, but new DYKs are supposed to be reconciled with previously existing articles when they seem to be contradictory.
- Second, the UN Official referred to in the Ngungwa article, Bintou Keita, is quoted as saying (see source 9): There are two territories, Nyunzu and Kalemie, north of Nyunzu, and also in the triangle of death, and here we are talking about Bendera, where there are still challenges at the security level which parses to me as two territories plus the triangle of death, which she puts in the Bendara area. The Ngungwa article, however, combines these, assigning Nyunzu and Kalemis to said "triangle": there would still be a presence in the territories of Nyunzu and Kalemie which remained in the "triangle of death" where serious crimes were happening. The phrase "triangle of death" makes for an interesting quote in a hook; I think the article needs to hew closer to Keita's actual words, and thus the ALT2 hook as well—perhaps, after (ceremony pictured), something along the lines of remaining in only two of the territories under Julie Ngungwa plus the "triangle of death" might be a potential approach? BlueMoonset (talk) 03:29, 27 August 2022 (UTC)
  - I've just found a UN source (here) that refers to the so-called "triangle of death" – an area bordering several localities between Tanganyika, Maniema, and South Kivu Provinces that matches what Keita describes; this matches with the map at the end of the 2013 UN report I mentioned above, which places Bendera just south of the South Kivu border, not far from the border between it and Maniema. BlueMoonset (talk) 03:51, 27 August 2022 (UTC)
    - Thanks for help, but my interest in this has waned. Good luck to others who perservere to get African women into DYK. Victuallers (talk) 08:49, 3 September 2022 (UTC)