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Template:Did you know nominations/Johann Lukas Legrand

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The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Gatoclass (talk) 23:19, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

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Johann Lukas Legrand

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Created by Aymatth2 (talk). Nominated by Dr. Blofeld (talk) at 16:51, 3 June 2015 (UTC).

  • Article is new and long enough. It is neutral and well-sourced with inline citations. A spot check reveals no signs of plagiarism although the translation of the German is a bit direct at times. I must admit my German is a little rusty, but does Seidenfabrik not translate to silk factory? A Seidenbandfabrik (silk ribbon factory) is only mentioned in the section after his political career. So for the hook part he would only be a silk manufacturer. Hook is cited in the correct manner and interesting, but it is too long I'm afraid. The 200 character limit includes the spaces, and this hook is 219 characters long. QPQ done, no image present. Crispulop (talk) 18:41, 6 June 2015 (UTC)
  • The German sources are mini-bio catalogs of facts with no creative expression, as is the article, so I don't think there is any close paraphrasing issue. Two cited sources support "Legrand returned to Basel in 1779, where he took over the manufacture of silk ribbons". Salvisberg 2008: 1779 kehrte er nach Basel zurück und wurde Seidenbandfabrikant gives "silk ribbon", and Bonjour 1985: worauf er die geistliche Laufbahn aufgab und eine Basler Seidenfabrik übernahm. gives "took over". But the hook is too long and at some stage he changed over to making cotton ribbons. "...puis se retira à Arlesheim ... et y fonda une fabrique de rubans de coton" How about ALT1? Aymatth2 (talk) 22:46, 6 June 2015 (UTC)
I think the text is far enough removed from the original German not to be considered close paraphrasing. Thanks for clearing up the ribbon maker situation. ALT 1 is fine and still interesting. I've added direct citations after the hook facts per DYK rules. Crispulop (talk) 12:15, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
  • Original text: "brutal despotism and rapacity"; this text: "brutality and rapacity". That's too close to source for my liking - this one may need closer inspection for PARAPHRASE. Gatoclass (talk) 10:31, 12 June 2015 (UTC)
  • The original text is "brutalen Willkür und Raublust". "Brutalen" means brutal. "Willkür" means arbitrariness, capriciousness, despotism. "Raublust" means rapacity, aggressive greed. The article attempts to capture the meaning of the original, while avoiding any creative expression. I do not see this as a close paraphrase. Aymatth2 (talk) 11:45, 12 June 2015 (UTC)
I will take a closer look at the rest of the article tomorrow. Gatoclass (talk) 11:55, 12 June 2015 (UTC)
  • Thank you once again to BlueMoonset for reminding me of this nom, and my apologies for not getting back to it sooner. Having taken a better look at the article, I still have some concerns. For example,
  • source: "He joined a small circle of young Basler to the Colonel Zunftmeister Peter Ochs, who wanted to forestall through a peaceful constitutional amendment in the canton of a military invasion of the French, which they succeeded early 1798".
  • article: "[He] joined the small circle of young men in Basel led by Colonel Peter Ochs who wanted to forestall a French military invasion by a peaceful constitutional amendment in the Canton of Basel, which they achieved early in 1798."
  • While most of the article is probably original enough, I think it still needs a little additional work here and there, such as with this sentence. Gatoclass (talk) 13:32, 7 July 2015 (UTC)
  • The source actually says "Er schloß sich einem kleinen Kreis junger Basler um den Oberstzunftmeister Peter Ochs an, die einer militärischen Invasion der Franzosen durch eine friedliche Verfassungsänderung im Kanton zuvorkommen wollten, was ihnen Anfang 1798 auch gelang." The article takes the bald facts but uses very different wording, as always with foreign-language sources. Facts are not subject to copyright. Has any creative expression has been taken: similes, metaphors, or original selection, arrangement or interpretation of facts? I do not see any. @Gatoclass: perhaps you could tweak any sentences that you think may infringe copyright so this can move forward? Thanks, Aymatth2 (talk) 14:47, 7 July 2015 (UTC)
Look, I'm sorry, but I am not going to accept a "the original is in a foreign language, therefore it can't be close paraphrasing" argument. Google translate renders the passage almost identically with your text, which is a problem in my book. Please find a way to rephrase the ideas in a more original manner. Thanks, Gatoclass (talk) 15:00, 7 July 2015 (UTC)
  • Translation from a foreign language is a form of paraphrasing, replacing all the words or phrases with synonyms. If the source were in English and had been paraphrased in that way, it would superficially appear very different. Certainly the author's creativity in choice of words would not have been infringed. There may still be infringement of figurative speech, selection, arrangement etc. in both a paraphrase and a translation. See WP:NOCREATIVE. That is not the case here. @Gatoclass: The facts are the same, obviously, but what creative expression has been carried over? Aymatth2 (talk) 15:29, 7 July 2015 (UTC)
As I don't want to waste any more time debating this, I have asked for a second opinion. Gatoclass (talk) 15:42, 7 July 2015 (UTC)
I asked Nikkimaria to respond but she has declined to venture an opinion. Since there is a dispute here, and I personally would be uncomfortable seeing this article promoted in its current form, I guess the best option at this point is for me to make some alterations to the article to my own satisfaction, but that will have to wait until the next day or two. Gatoclass (talk) 16:11, 7 July 2015 (UTC)
All this fuss, deary me. Just let this one go if it's too much trouble for you. Not worth all this, no wonder people give up on DYK!♦ Dr. Blofeld 17:46, 7 July 2015 (UTC)
  • I agree the article is unimportant – just a potted bio of a minor figure – but I would be curious to see Gatoclass's changes. The discussion was useful anyway in showing that WP:NOCREATIVE needed to be clarified. Aymatth2 (talk) 00:45, 8 July 2015 (UTC)
  • Since Nikkimaria has declined to review this submission for possible PARAPHRASE, and I am struggling to interpret the google-translated source so as to accurately rephrase it, I have decided to withdraw my objection to this nomination. Gatoclass (talk) 05:14, 16 July 2015 (UTC)
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