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Template:Did you know nominations/Die Schutzbefohlenen

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The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Yoninah (talk) 11:05, 7 January 2021 (UTC)

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Die Schutzbefohlenen

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Scene at the Burgtheater, 2015
Scene at the Burgtheater, 2015
  • ... that Die Schutzbefohlenen (Charges or The Supplicants), a 2013 text by Elfriede Jelinek dealing critically with refugee politics at the time, was staged in Vienna in 2015 (scene pictured)? Source: several
  • Reviewed: to come
  • Comment: I'm sorry, I am late again, and this time I simply forgot to nominate, - it was long and sourced enough from the beginning - I think.

Created by Gerda Arendt (talk). Self-nominated at 09:57, 4 November 2020 (UTC).

  • General eligibility:
Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems

Hook eligibility:

  • Cited: Yes - Offline/paywalled citation accepted in good faith
  • Interesting: No - Mmm, I think the article has potential but the hook could be better. First, "dealing critically with" is vague. Maybe something about asking the question whether EU policies are in line with values? Consider that most readers are probably not from EU, might not remember about the 2015 refugee crisis.
Image: Image is freely licensed, used in the article, and clear at 100px.

QPQ: No - TBD
Overall: I am happy to ignore 1 day late because you are such a nice editor (: (t · c) buidhe 10:34, 4 November 2020 (UTC)

Thank you for review and lenience - please remember that this was 2013, not 2016 when it got hotter. I am often told that catching attraction is more important than precision in a hook, - not that I agree. - Agree that the article could be better, there's MUCH more in German, if someone is inclined and has the time. - Will look here again later. (Someone died who has no article, and I had an article plan for today.) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:11, 4 November 2020 (UTC)
ps: what's the expression for values we took from the ancient Greeks? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:13, 4 November 2020 (UTC)
I reviewed now Template:Did you know nominations/Clerodendrum quadriloculare. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:49, 6 November 2020 (UTC)
Buidhe, I reworded the value thing, please check.
ALT1: ... that Die Schutzbefohlenen (Charges or The Supplicants), a 2013 text by Elfriede Jelinek critical of refugee politics at the time, was staged in Vienna in 2015 (scene pictured)?
I'd hesitate to restrict it to the EU, for a global audience. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:42, 10 November 2020 (UTC)
OK, but this is really vague. Critical of which refugee politics, and how? I mean, neo-Nazis were also "critical of refugee politics at the time", from the other direction. (t · c) buidhe 20:55, 22 November 2020 (UTC)
  • Gerda, can we finish this up please? Yoninah (talk) 17:12, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
    Do you have an idea? I'm reviewing (Buidhe's) at the moment, then will turn to the musicologist who died. We can't retell the play in on sentence, but also can't say nothing about it. Help welcome. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:20, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
    ALT2: ... that although Die Schutzbefohlenen (Charges or The Supplicants) was written by Elfriede Jelinek as language art for Vienna in 2013, it was performed as a reading in Hamburg that year, and was staged at the Burgtheater two years later (scene pictured)?
@Gerda Arendt: I believe Alt2 is too complicated/rather technical and not very hooky. I think a note about the background/theme would be more fitting than a retelling of the performance history. And the article clearly states that it is about the EU policy and mingration, so it wouldn't make sense to blur that for an international audience. How about a compromise like one of these (also @Yoninah):
For ALT4, "deals with" might not be optimal phrasing, and perhaps should be "revolves around" or "explores". My English skills fail me a bit there; a native might be able to word this better.
(Somewhat unrelated, I believe that "Schutzbefohlene" would literally translate into English rather as "wards", "protégés" or sth like this. The "charges/supplicants" thing is stated in the source, but seems to me to be a translation error stemming from when you type the Polish translation into Google Translate, which then gives "charges" as an alternate translation for Podopieczni.) --LordPeterII (talk) 13:56, 10 December 2020 (UTC)
Good ideas, only "immigration" seems not quite right (and doesn't appear in the article, afaik), because the policy was to rather deny refugees the right to immigrate into Austria. Re the translations: I took them as sources have them. "Wards" or "Wardens" would capture the meaning, but a literally literal translation would be "those entrusted to protection". --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:09, 10 December 2020 (UTC)
Maybe simply replace the word "immigrantion" with "refugees" then? I understand that the play highlights the problems (I'm from Germany and quite aware of the whole recent developments), I just wanted a way to quickly point at the general topic with as few words as possible for the hook. It's a bit problematic that she was almost prophetic in writing that before the Migrant Crisis really started in 2014, so we can't link to that article easily. As for the translation, I think my problem is just with "literally" then. You have captured the German meaning quite well with "those entrusted to protection", but you're also right that's simply not what the sources state. Thus, I would propose to just drop the 'literally' and rather write translated as "Charges (The Supplicants)" or sth like this in the article. In any case, it doesn't need to be in the hook, the original German name suffices imo. --LordPeterII (talk) 17:01, 10 December 2020 (UTC)
Thank you! - I'm rather busy (Beethoven, DYK?), - can you perhaps change the hook (ALT4 preferred), and the article regarding the translation? The title is a piece of language art itself, and all English phrases don't capture that. Footnote perhaps? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:07, 10 December 2020 (UTC)
I love what you added, - added you as contributor here. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:28, 11 December 2020 (UTC)

Alright, so I've looked into clarifying the title, and finally stumbled upon what the problem was: It is that both the German and the English titles are allusions to the Ancient Greek play by Aeschylus, which is called The Suppliants in English, and de:Die Schutzflehenden (Aischylos) in German. So it is intentionally not a literal translation! I've included that info into the article along with some sources to reference. I've also made some other minor changes, so maybe take a quick look at the article again Gerda Arendt. But that also means that we have potentially some more hooks available, like these (could also be mixed to create even more options):

I believe to satisfy the criteria these new ALTs might require some more precise inline citations, so if you would like one of them I can try to add such one. But of course, maybe the simple one would still be okay (I switched the wikilink for humanitarian because the other article was specifically about UN stuff):

  • ALT4a: ... that Elfriede Jelinek created Die Schutzbefohlenen as a "language artwork" which deals with humanitarian values and refugees? --LordPeterII (talk) 09:44, 11 December 2020 (UTC)
    Excellent options, thank you! I like ALT6 best, added (scene pictured) to that one, - no time for the others right now. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:48, 11 December 2020 (UTC)
    Good. So @Buidhe or @Yoninah (not sure who is responsible), can this be approved with ALT6? Not sure if this needs to be more explicitly stated in the article in a single line, but it becomes obvious once you read the synopsis of Aeschylus' play. If that hook requires further editing in the DYK article, let me know. --LordPeterII (talk) 11:26, 11 December 2020 (UTC)
    (minor change again to ALT6, to make it - like the article itself - adhere to the MOS on foreign terms, and thus also to the supplementary DYK rule C10.) --LordPeterII (talk) 16:06, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
    • @Gerda Arendt:@LordPeterII: The article doesn't mention anything about the plot of The Supplicants. And our Wikipedia article on the ancient Greek play doesn't mention anything about fleeing to Europe from Africa. Yoninah (talk) 21:01, 20 December 2020 (UTC)
      The German version says they flee from Egypt which is in Africa. I leave the rest to LordPeterII. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:22, 20 December 2020 (UTC)
LordPeterII hasn't edited since December 27th and did not respond to the above ping. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 10:03, 2 January 2021 (UTC)
You could approve one of the other hooks, such as ALT4a or ALT8. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:29, 2 January 2021 (UTC)

I'm sorry, got "burned out" and needed a break over the holidays. I'll add a section on the plot, should be easy enough. --LordPeterII (talk) 11:42, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

@Narutolovehinata5 or Yoninah: Can you check the first paragraph of the new "Theme" section and see if that suffices? It still reads a little bit bumpy, as the sources clearly state that people in Aischylos' play are fleeing to Europe, but not where from; I added that info in brackets (Egypt). Might need an edit to make it more readable. And if this sourcing isn't acceptable, I'd prefer ALT8 which omits the Africa part. Or maybe
without the Africa part (which again is correct, but needs a second source and can't be sourced from the primary one). --LordPeterII (talk) 13:46, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
Other than how Jelinek's full name should be mentioned in the Theme section (as it's his her first mention in the body) as well as how references should be after punctuations (and not before a parenthesis), it looks okay. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 02:51, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
Did you mean "her first mention"? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:03, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
I adjusted these things. Narutolovehinata5, please let me know if this is sufficient (for ALT6 preferred, but some other if needed), as now I've got some other articles I want to get to ^^ --LordPeterII (talk) 09:53, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
Oops, apologies for the misunderstanding. It looks better now and I think ALT6/ALT6a is fine, just waiting for Buidhe's final review (or another editor to choose if they're unresponsive). Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 10:13, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
to 6a. A drive-by approval! I have read the sources to support 6 and 6a and I can see that it isn't explicit that the refugees are from Africa, but they are arriving in Spain and it would be a very long journey from anywhere else. I'm happy with both, but 6a is not only well reffed but its also more snappy as the readers will imply "from Africa" anyway. Thanks for the work all of you. Victuallers (talk) 11:38, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
  • @Victuallers: the article is emphasizing that the plays are similar because the refugees came from Africa, but ALT6a is emphasizing that they went to Europe. The hook and article need to line up better.
  • For an image slot you need a really good hook. The German name is also taking over the hook, and this is the English Wikipedia. Why don't you say something like:
  • ALT9: ... that a 2013 play (scene pictured) by Elfriede Jelinek, inspired by an ancient Greek tragedy, questions whether the European Union's refugee policies aligned with humanitarian ideals rooted in Ancient Greece? Yoninah (talk) 18:56, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
    You can disregard my opinion but if we neither give the original title - of a piece of language art! - nor name the Austrian theatre, it hangs in the air culturally, - could be anywhere in Europe. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:02, 6 January 2021 (UTC)

I agree that the name should be in the hook - it's a sort of pun on the ancient play, and is indeed part of the artwork (if you want to consider it that). Moreover, I don't feel like it is inappropriate for the English Wikipedia, given that the supplementary rule C10 has a specific guideline for non-English names (which I tried to adhere to once I became aware of it). And I still prefer ALT6a best, ALT9 would imo be a bit complicated to read (although containing more information).

As for the imbalanced emphasis on the continents, I will try to remedy that. It is a result of me trying to mash this all together in a way that makes sense; but now that Africa is dropped for ALT6a, there's no need to keep it this convoluted. --LordPeterII (talk) 19:23, 6 January 2021 (UTC)

@Yoninah: Forgot to ping you, and I've tried to fix that section of the article. Does it read better now? Otherwise, frankly I might need some help. --LordPeterII (talk) 19:34, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
I think you are overthinking this. Yoninah says that the article is "emphasising" that the refugees are from Africa, but it actually mentions it once. This is a short article and the hooks that you have discussed I am sure can be tweaked for a few more weeks but I argue that they are good to go and we need to allow editors to move on, which was the purpose of my intercession. Victuallers (talk) 08:53, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
  • Looks like LordPeterII fixed the wording in the article, thanks. Restoring tick for ALT6a. Yoninah (talk) 11:02, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
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