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Template:Did you know nominations/Council of Churches of the City of New York

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The following discussion is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus to promote after 28 days. Editors disagree about which hook to use, though the overriding concern that compels me to fail this nomination is the continued close paraphrasing. Cunard (talk) 00:13, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

Council of Churches of the City of New York edit

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Created/expanded by Leszek Jańczuk (talk). Self nom at 12:03, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Looks good to go, but you should fill out the references properly with publisher information.♦ Dr. Blofeld 16:04, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
I'm concerned that some of the phrasing used in this article may be too close to that of this source. Nikkimaria (talk) 16:14, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

They are not the same (my English is not good). Leszek Jańczuk (talk) 18:14, 28 February 2012 (UTC) The longest phrase was: "... the Protestant Pavilion at the 1964-65 New York World’s Fair which produced the award-winning film, Parable..." I changed it into: "...the Protestant Pavilion at the 1964-65 New York World’s Fair, in which was showed the award-winning film Parable..." Leszek Jańczuk (talk) 11:08, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
  • I've flagged the first hook suggestion as unacceptable. That's an extraordinary claim, and the organization's own website is not sufficient sourcing for it. --Orlady (talk) 16:23, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
  • I propose ALT3. Leszek Jańczuk (talk) 18:14, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
  • Color me confused. After I flagged "that the Council of Churches of the City of New York is the first interdenominational organization in the United States" with a slash to indicate it as unacceptable (because I think it is too extraordinary a claim to be sourced only to the website of the organization itself -- and, as it happens, I'm not sure that the organization website actually says that), the nominator struck through the next hook ("that the Council of Churches of the City of New York is the oldest council of churches in the United States?"), which I think is potentially OK. Does the nominator now think that the second hook is bad?
As for ALT3, I don't find it particularly interesting -- I've never heard of the Family of Man banquet, and nothing in the hook makes me want to know more.
A general concern with the whole article is that it is based almost entirely on the organization's own website. --Orlady (talk) 04:17, 6 March 2012 (UTC)
According to the site of Columbia University Libraries it is the oldest ecumenical council of Christian churches in the United States. I want original hook. Almost everything you can find in other sources used in the article (except the chapel at the JFK airport). Leszek Jańczuk (talk) 05:11, 6 March 2012 (UTC)
My concern with the first hook is related to the fact that "oldest ecumenical council of Christian churches" does not have the same meaning as "first interdenominational organization". "Ecumenical" and "interdenominational" are not synonyms. More significantly, "oldest" indicates that it is the oldest of those now in existence, whereas "first" indicates that no other such entity was formed at any earlier time. Considering the relatively small universe of councils of churches in the U.S., it should not be difficult to establish which one is the oldest. However, it would be a significant challenge to establish that no other interdenominational group existed in the United States before this one.
Regarding sources, I'm glad to see that you have added some more third-party sources to the article. (When I commented earlier, I thought it likely that other sources existed, but for verifiability it is not sufficient for sources to exist; sources need to be identified.) --Orlady (talk) 05:39, 6 March 2012 (UTC)
I propose ALT4. Leszek Jańczuk (talk) 09:08, 6 March 2012 (UTC)
  • This looks like it needs another review. Crisco 1492 (talk) 07:26, 13 March 2012 (UTC)
  • I, for one, am not particularly interested in getting into a head-butting match with a nominator who is insistent on hook wording that is not consistent with the sources -- and I'm not particularly interested in cleaning up the other issues with the article in order to get it to DYK. Someone else is welcome to get involved. --Orlady (talk) 16:32, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
    • The terms "interdenominational" and "ecumenical" are often used interchangeable (as we see in our sources). It should not be a problem, but I propose ALT4. Leszek Jańczuk (talk) 23:39, 19 March 2012 (UTC)
      • The terms "interdenominational" and "ecumenical" may often be used interchangeably, but they do not mean the same thing. Anyway, the sources cited do not support either the original hook or ALT4. They do indicate that this is the oldest ecumenical council of churches in the U.S. If the nominator is going to insist (contrary to DYK rules, I might add) that ALT4 is the only acceptable hook, then this is going nowhere. The ALT2 hook is supported by sources, so ALT2 would be acceptable if the close paraphrasing issue with the article were resolved. However, I find that the article still has an unacceptably strong resemblance to this page. --Orlady (talk) 21:31, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
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