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Template:Did you know nominations/Bob Lee (businessman)

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The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: rejected by reviewer, closed by Narutolovehinata5 (talk) 08:41, 22 July 2023 (UTC)
The nominators have not addressed the concerns raised in the nomination; it has been open for over two months and issues have remained.

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Bob Lee (businessman)

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Created by Thriley (talk) and ElijahPepe (talk). Nominated by Thriley (talk) at 15:20, 13 April 2023 (UTC). Post-promotion hook changes for this nom will be logged at Template talk:Did you know nominations/Bob Lee (businessman); consider watching this nomination, if it is successful, until the hook appears on the Main Page.

  • Should his passing be mentioned? ("the late developer of Cash App"). But I do think that it should be rephrased like "had such exuberant energy playing water polo, that he was known as 'Crazy Bob'?". It reads to be stronger and less... boring? idk. SWinxy (talk) 19:11, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

General eligibility:

Policy compliance:

Hook eligibility:

  • Cited: No - The source uses the expression "unending energy" rather than "exuberant energy" and it may be better to use the former expression as a quotation.
  • Interesting: Yes
  • Other problems: No - Subject to my own comment, I agree with the comments by SWinxy.
QPQ: Done.

Overall: Appears to be as to nomination date. Otherwise, . The lede should name the subject's mother if there's a reliable source for it. Her name was Nanette. The wording of the first par of "Early life and career" is a bit too similar to the source and needs to be altered somewhat. Additionally, the source is not cited and appears to be a blog of dubious reliability. Otherwise plagiarism appears to be not an issue. The other sources I checked substantiate the info for which they are cited, except the one for "In July 2001, while employed at Ajilon, Lee wrote a program for Microsoft IIS to defend servers from Code Red, at the time a rapidly spreading computer worm.", and that source is also a Wikipedia article, and therefore not reliable. Once the various issues have been addressed, I will review again. Bahnfrend (talk) 10:02, 23 April 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for your review. I’ll fix the article up soon. Thriley (talk) 02:03, 28 April 2023 (UTC)
@Bahnfrend: Per WP:DYKSG, a nomination that is late by a day or two is usually still accepted, particularly if there are no other issues and if the nominator still wants to pursue the nomination. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 05:28, 28 April 2023 (UTC)
Still interested, for the record. elijahpepe@wikipedia (he/him) 01:49, 29 April 2023 (UTC)
If you are still interested, you need to address the issues as soon as possible, otherwise the nomination will be closed. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 14:09, 9 May 2023 (UTC)
Marking for closure due to a lack of response. Nomination can resume if the issues are addressed. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 00:45, 13 May 2023 (UTC)
  • I think the article looks fine. I’m not really sure the things mentioned in the review are problematic and cause the article to be unfit for DYK. Thriley (talk) 01:03, 13 May 2023 (UTC)
@ElijahPepe: Any thoughts? Thriley (talk) 01:04, 13 May 2023 (UTC)
I'm going to have to agree here. It's a fine article, especially given the recentism towards his death. elijahpepe@wikipedia (he/him) 01:09, 13 May 2023 (UTC)
Gonna ping Bahnfrend for their thoughts as they're the review. Isn't recentism a bad thing though? Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 01:42, 13 May 2023 (UTC)
The majority of the article covers his life, not his death, so WP:RECENTISM does not apply. Articles about Lee only started appearing after his death, so it's very easy to get carried away by his death itself. elijahpepe@wikipedia (he/him) 02:32, 13 May 2023 (UTC)
@Narutolovehinata5: My thoughts are as set out above. Plagiarism, even if confined to part of an article, and inappropriate sourcing, are not trivial. The nominator hasn't addressed my comments yet. When that has occurred, I'd be happy to review again. I agree that the one day delay in nominating should be waived if the other points are fixed. I don't think that there's any problem of recentism. Bahnfrend (talk) 13:44, 13 May 2023 (UTC)
Where do you see plagiarism? elijahpepe@wikipedia (he/him) 15:20, 13 May 2023 (UTC)
  • I think a new review would be helpful. Thriley (talk) 21:33, 2 June 2023 (UTC)
  • Long enough, new-ish enough. No neutrality problems found, no maintenance templates found, and I fail to see any plagiarism so I'll assume it's been fixed. QPQ done. Hook is sourced but boring - what else have you got?--Launchballer 06:56, 6 June 2023 (UTC)
    I don't know how it could have been fixed when the section hasn't been edited since the concern was raised. Bahnfrend, could you clarify what source you are referring to as "not cited and appears to be a blog of dubious reliability"? Nikkimaria (talk) 00:55, 8 June 2023 (UTC)
The section "Early life and career" begins with the sentence "Lee was born in St. Louis, Missouri on December 20, 1979, to Rick "Ricky" Lee." The cited source, a page on the emissourian.com website, makes no mention of that date, or "rick" or "ricky". IIRC, when I first reviewed this article a month ago, I did a google search that indicated that the assertions in that sentence came from a blog of dubious reliability. I did another google search today, and there are now lots of web pages that seem to have sourced assertions about the subject's dob and father from the subject Wikipedia article (and therefore cannot themselves be reliable sources). What are the reliable sources for these important assertions?
The sentence "In July 2001, while employed at Ajilon, Lee wrote a program for Microsoft IIS to defend servers from Code Red, at the time a rapidly spreading computer worm." is sourced not to a reliable source, but to this Wikipedia article, which makes no mention of the subject, Ajilon, Code Red or even Microsoft. What is the reliable source for the important information in this sentence?
These are not trivial points. If you were to strip out the fact that the subject (allegedly) developed the anti-Code Red software (on his own?), the subject becomes an unfortunate deceased person who worked in the IT industry together with others in developing various computer programs, and was (by various accounts) a nice guy with a personality. Possibly not enough to make him a notable subject for a Wikipedia article.
That said, I note that in the last few weeks (since my first review), there has been further publicity about the case, and that it now seems that the subject "was not killed in a random and unfortunate encounter, but by a fellow tech worker", who confronted the subject over a relationship with the fellow worker's sister. "Instead of acting as a symbol of a city in decline, Lee’s murder has instead shone a light on a different aspect of San Francisco – an underground scene of extramarital affairs, casual drug use and partying, and the tech elite that participates in it."
As this latest info about what a reliable source (a reputable London newspaper) describes as "The Lifestyle" is only briefly mentioned in passing in the article, it now also seems that the article is somewhat out of date and somewhat misses the point. Additionally, a hook based on some of the detail of the latest info would be likely to be far more interesting than the present suggested hook. Bahnfrend (talk) 05:00, 9 June 2023 (UTC)
I went ahead and fixed the sourcing issues that occurred when a user removed the reference for his birth date. The reference to The Screen Savers is valid and comes from this episode that I couldn't track down. It is not referring to the Wikipedia page. I'll have someone else handle the recent developments about his death. elijahpepe@wikipedia (he/him) 21:11, 15 June 2023 (UTC)
  • ElijahPepe, the reference to "The Screen Savers" as it is written is referring to the Wikipedia page. There is no way someone can click on the available link and find the information about Lee from that reference. You need to fix that if you wish this nomination to succeed, plus the other issues raised by Bahnfrend. It has been eleven days since your most recent post here and minor edit there, and no one has handled any of the recent developments on his death, and the fix you did leaves the name "Rick" without a referent, and there has been no attempt to update the hook by you or by original nominator Thriley. This is now the oldest DYK nomination, and if it isn't fully updated in the next seven days, it may be closed at any point as too old and not ready for the main page. BlueMoonset (talk) 01:02, 27 June 2023 (UTC)
    I refuse to "fix" the reference to The Screen Savers. The template in use is Template:Cite episode, and I properly cited the month and year the episode was aired. If you are going to reject the nomination purely on that basis, this nomination had little chance to begin with. elijahpepe@wikipedia (he/him) 01:22, 27 June 2023 (UTC)
    ElijahPepe, the point behind Template:Cite episode is to identify the exact episode the information comes from, so the information can be verified from the episode in question. In 2001, The Screen Savers broadcast 200 episodes (see this source from the show's Wikipedia page), which means they broadcast an average of over 16 episodes per month. For the template contents to be verifiable, you'll need to include the episode date (not just "August 2001"), and ideally (since the show was either 60 or 90 minutes long), a timestamp of when the information appears during the episode. Is there a reason you don't directly reference the video excerpted from the show on Bob Lee's own channel that you link to above, which has Lee being interviewed by one of the episode's hosts? BlueMoonset (talk) 00:16, 1 July 2023 (UTC)
  • No response from the nominator to BM's comment and given that this is currently the oldest active nomination, it's probably time to close this unless the citation issue is addressed. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 12:33, 8 July 2023 (UTC)
I've added an archive link which heavily implies the clip comes from around the 27th of August 2001.--Launchballer 12:42, 8 July 2023 (UTC)
Are there any remaining issues or is this good to go? Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 12:57, 8 July 2023 (UTC)
This archive link from Lee's page on Code Red gives a slightly different timeline (his program was released on August 7, which makes the "July 2001" date suspect or at least incomplete). I've rewritten the sentence involved to use the above link and drop the other sources; the link I gave also includes the statement, Special thanks to Cap Gemini Ernst & Young for laying me off, leaving me with enough time to work on this., which to me indicates that while Lee may have been working for Ajilon at the time of his appearance on The Screen Savers in late August, we can't safely conclude in Wikipedia's voice that he was working for them several weeks earlier while writing the Code Red Vigilante program, especially given his explicit statement to the contrary. Narutolovehinata5, I would certainly want to check with Bahnfrend to make sure the issues mentioned above have all been dealt with; there were also some comments about the wording of the hook that should be addressed, even if it only means writing out the updated wording below so the promoters have a completely valid hook to use. BlueMoonset (talk) 00:14, 9 July 2023 (UTC)
@BlueMoonset: I'm satisfied with the changes to the citations, etc. But as previously indicated, I think that the article is now out of date, and should now include some more detailed content sourced to the London newspaper article. A paragraph with two or three sentences would probably be enough. I also still think that the hook should use "unending energy" instead of "exuberant energy". Bahnfrend (talk) 02:48, 10 July 2023 (UTC)
@BlueMoonset and Bahnfrend: There's still been no response to above. What should be done with the nomination? It's currently the oldest unapproved one. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 03:13, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
This looks good to go for me. "unending energy" instead of "exuberant energy" is a good replacement. Thriley (talk) 01:08, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
  • ALT1 that Bob Lee, the developer of Cash App, was known as "Crazy Bob" from his unending energy energy in playing water polo? Thriley (talk) 01:22, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
    • Reiterating the above icon. There has been no attempt by either credited creator to bring the article up to date in the way Bahnfrend has noted is needed, and the hook is a bit of a stretch now that I've read the source closely: the nickname seems to have come from water polo, yes, but the source says the nickname is a testament to his "unending energy levels", not that those levels were the reason he got the nickname in the first place. (You'd also need to quote "unending energy" here, and I believe also use a quoted "unending energy levels" in the article since the hook fact needs to be in the article (in this case a quote, and not out of context, either). This is, as noted above several times, the oldest DYK nomination and has been waiting for over a quarter of a year; time to close it down. Thriley, as the nominator, I realize you do think it's good to go, but several people are telling you it isn't. If you aren't going to update it now as requested, and get a better hook, I believe this should be closed. BlueMoonset (talk) 03:28, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
Bahnfrend is saying that the article isn’t ready because more information needs to be added on his life in the San Francisco sex club scene? I think enough is there already. I think I can come up with a different hook if this one has an issue. Thriley (talk) 03:50, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
ALT2 that Bob Lee, the developer of Cash App, assisted the World Health Organization with its COVID-19 app? Thriley (talk) 03:55, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
I still think that the article is now out of date. A summary of how the story surrounding Lee and his death has changed since he died is set out in this extract from the English newspaper (and reliable source) The Guardian:
"Lee was found with multiple stab wounds in downtown San Francisco in the early morning hours of 4 April. In the days that followed, an information void and lack of an arrest sparked speculation that the killing had been a random act of violence, intensifying the discourse over crime, homelessness and drug use in the city.
But details soon emerged that upended that narrative, revealing the stabbing was the alleged result of a dispute between the two acquaintances. Discussion of the crime has since shifted to whispers of rampant drug use, the high-flying world of tech executives and a fatal showdown over Lee’s relationship with Momeni’s sister.
...
The reality of Lee’s death is shaping up to be far more lurid."
The Wikipedia article in its present form doesn't say anything about this change of narrative over time. However, there will no doubt be more publicity about the death in due course, and maybe that will be the time to set the article straight. Bahnfrend (talk) 05:32, 19 July 2023 (UTC)
Do we really need to include “lurid” details right now? The trial is ongoing. That shouldn’t prevent this from making DYK. Thriley (talk) 05:38, 19 July 2023 (UTC)
There's nothing in DYK rules per se against ongoing events being featured on DYK, but past precent has stated that articles should be more-or-less stable or complete to pass DYK, and depending on the situation, current events may have trouble reaching that mark. An article being out-of-date would also arguably fail the "articles must feel complete" guideline. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 04:18, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
  • @Bahnfrend: It doesn't seem like the issues are going to be resolved anytime soon. Given the length of time this has been up, maybe it's time to close? Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 07:10, 21 July 2023 (UTC)
Yes, looks like it. Bahnfrend (talk) 06:28, 22 July 2023 (UTC)


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