The following is an archived discussion of Arapian's DYK nomination. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page; such as this archived nomination"s (talk) page, the nominated article's (talk) page, or the Did you know
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The result was: promoted by Allen3 talk 11:01, 18 March 2013 (UTC).
Arapian edit
- ... that the founder of Arapian, a famed pastourma market in Athens, Greece, was a refugee of the Armenian genocide?
- Reviewed: Stefan Matschiner
- Created and expanded by Proudbolsahye (talk) and Dr.K. (talk). Nominated by Proudbolsahye (talk) at 08:45, 9 February 2013 (UTC)
This all looks ready to go – I've tightened up some information in the review section (tone and attribution are fine). However, in the cited line for the hook you state that Arapian was a native of Kayseri. I could not find this information in the sources given. Can you review this? Also I notice that you have not reviewed another hook. There are plenty left in the February 9 section if you wish. Following the resolution of these two issues, I will pass. SFB 20:32, 25 February 2013 (UTC)
- The first reference seems to be dead. This is problematic, since it's a major reference and the only English source supporting the hook. --BDD (talk) 00:36, 27 February 2013 (UTC)
- I can't believe this! The link was working fine just yesterday. Proudbolsahye (talk) 00:40, 27 February 2013 (UTC)
- It's working perfectly for me. Athens News A cut above the rest by Helen Varvaritis-Tourikis 7 Aug 2011 7:07 pm , see also alternative link:
A cut above the rest by Helen Varvaritis-Tourikis 7 Aug 2011 7:07 pm FLICKING through Jamie Oliver’s travelling cookbook Jamie does… (Greece, among other countries), you will come across a double-page photo of the Naked Chef leaning against the tiny shop front of Arapian, the specialty charcuterie on Evripidou Street, in the Athens central market. Next to him is the cleaver-wielding Fanis Theodoropoulos, third-generation owner of Arapian and champion of Greek cured meats...
- I can copy and paste the whole reference or parts thereof if you like. But it would be against fair use to do so for the whole reference. Perhaps you should also check your browser's cache. By the way I have experience with links from "Athens News.gr" and they are very reliable. Δρ.Κ. λόγοςπράξις 15:23, 27 February 2013 (UTC)
- References are active for me and checked out fine. Thanks for the quotation from Ta Nea. The only outstanding issue is that Proudbolsahye needs to review another DYK hook before this can be promoted. SFB 18:02, 27 February 2013 (UTC)
- It's working perfectly for me. Athens News A cut above the rest by Helen Varvaritis-Tourikis 7 Aug 2011 7:07 pm , see also alternative link:
Good to go. A very good new article to move on to next would be the greater Varvakios Agora (Athens Central Market). This would help fill out the perspective of the two specialist shops covered here. Commercial topics are very poorly covered on Wikipedia (especially foreign ones). I believe this is due to a bias among an editorship which does not place much importance on general daily trade. SFB 18:34, 27 February 2013 (UTC)
- What is the source for the hook phrase "was a refugee of the Armenian genocide?" I've looked at three of the four sources given at the end of the sentence in the article (the fourth seems to be behind a paywall—the links were in Greek—but the phrases in the reference section for it don't mention the Armenian genocide at all). BlueMoonset (talk) 22:59, 27 February 2013 (UTC)
- Bluemoonset, source #4 says Μετά την γενοκτονία των Αρμενίων το 1915 περάσανε στην Κων/πολη και από τους διωγμούς φτάσανε στη Χίο κι από εκεί στην Παλιά Κοκκινιά, όπου σήμερα είναι το εργαστήριο.Proudbolsahye (talk) 00:24, 28 February 2013 (UTC)
- PB, this is a reference for Miran, in the upper half of the article. But the Athens news citation [1] mentions:
The shop takes its name from founder Sarkis Arapian who, fleeing his homeland after the Asia Minor catastrophe, set up the small shop in 1933 to sell the homemade cured meats for which he and his compatriots yearned...
- In Greek, Asia Minor catastrophe is used mostly for the events surrounding the Greco-Turkish War (1919–1922) and the Greek Genocide. I'm sure Arapian, like his compatriot Miran was fleeing the Armenian Genocide which lasted from 1915–1923 and not the Greek Asia-Minor catastrophe, but the Greek reference cites the Asia Minor catastrophe. Δρ.Κ. λόγοςπράξις 01:44, 28 February 2013 (UTC)
- Bluemoonset, thank you for raising these concerns. I am always willing to provide an ALT. However, as Dr.K. mentioned above, the Asia Minor catastrophe could might as well refer to the Armenian genocide since in the end of the day Sarkis Arapian did not suffer from the Greek genocide or the Greco-Turkish War (1919–1922) for obvious reasons. I believe having the good faith assumption and considering using the term Armenian genocide to describe the event is the right thing to do. It is also hard to see why Miran Kourounlian or Miran Pastourma who was from the very same city as Sarkis Arapian would suffer any more differently and under different circumstances. Proudbolsahye (talk) 21:33, 3 March 2013 (UTC)
- Proudbolsahye, you have to go by what the source says, not by what you think it probably means. This isn't a matter of good faith but a matter of sourcing. I had actually been writing a response at the same time as Dr.K., but decided it wasn't necessary when the "conflict" screen came up: as noted, the source you had used had the information about Miran, not Arapian, so it simply couldn't be used. I had noticed that FN4 went into a bit of detail about Arapian, but it did not say Armenian Genocide, and unless you find another source entirely that does, you're without adequate documentation for him. An ALT will therefore be necessary, and the article itself will have to be modified to more closely reflect the cited sources. BlueMoonset (talk) 22:00, 3 March 2013 (UTC)
ALT1... that the famed Arapian pastourma and soutzouki market in Athens, Greece, operates out of a 15 m2 store? Proudbolsahye (talk) 22:06, 3 March 2013 (UTC)
ALT2... that the founder of Arapian, a famed pastourma market in Athens, Greece, was a refugee of the Asia Minor Catastrophe? Proudbolsahye (talk) 22:11, 3 March 2013 (UTC)
- I personally like ALT2. Proudbolsahye (talk) 22:14, 3 March 2013 (UTC)
- I have to admit I'm more than a little taken aback at the preference for ALT2, especially given the statements earlier that you both believed it was not truly accurate. When my personal knowledge leads me to believe that a certain piece of information is dubious—that a newspaper reporter may have gotten something wrong—I tend to either leave it out or hedge it somehow. To make it the key point of a hook strikes me as a bad idea. I'd be fine with ALT1 (from the American point of view, that's a very small store), or you might want to point out that it's run by the family of Sarkis Arapian's eventual Greek partner (from Armenian to Greek ownership), which was something that struck me as possibly unusual, and different from Miran. BlueMoonset (talk) 00:31, 4 March 2013 (UTC)\
- Regarding your statement: I have to admit I'm more than a little taken aback at the preference for ALT2... Please don't be alarmed. I remind you that we are here for WP:V and not WP:TRUTH. Per the WP:RS this is a perfectly supportable and verifiable statement. Don't forget that the Greek Genocide happened at around the same time as the Armenian Genocide and that is simply the perfectly accurate reflection of the Greek reporter's opinion about the timing of the event and not its cause. And don't forget that my analysis of the comments of the Greek reporter was my own analysis just for discussion's sake and not meant to override the reliable source. That would be blatant WP:OR. Δρ.Κ. λόγοςπράξις 01:28, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
ALT3... that Arapian, a famed pastourma market in Athens, Greece, transferred ownership from an Armenian family to a Greek one?
- Bluemoonset, your preference is well taken. However, I don't believe neither me nor Dr.K. have stated that the reference was factually incorrect in the article. We just merely pointed to the fact the Asia Minor Catastrophe may also signify the Armenian Genocide given that Sarkis Arapian was Armenian. But more importantly, my misunderstanding of the source #4 (see above) is the prime reason why it has lead me to believe it was about the Armenian genocide. Nevertheless, if the source says that it is an Asia Minor Catastrophe, we can work with that as well. Proudbolsahye (talk) 01:12, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
- I don't find ALT3 very interesting. Instead I propose the following alternate hook to reflect the source more accurately:
ALT4... that the founder of Arapian, a famed pastourma market in Athens, Greece, fled from his homeland after the Asia Minor Catastrophe? Δρ.Κ. λόγοςπράξις 01:41, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
I'm calling for a new reviewer, since I'd like another perspective on the use of "Asia Minor Catastrophe". It comes from a single source, which may be sufficient under the circumstances, but given the above (no, not alarm) I'm not the one to sign off on it. I have struck ALT3 (agree with Dr.K. that it's not interesting); ALT4 says "during the time of the Asia Minor Catastrophe", but the source very clearly says "after": if that single source is deemed accurate with regard to it having been the Asia Minor Catastrophe (rather than the Armenian Genocide), then that accuracy should extend to "after" as well. BlueMoonset (talk) 20:32, 10 March 2013 (UTC)
- I fully agree with "after". In fact I was thinking about the exact same thing some time ago. Thank you. Also as a general comment, the "Asias Minor Catastrophe" is used here as a chronological device to establish the timing of Arapian's exit from Turkey. As such, the time is accurate and indisputable. At that time many other upheavals and catastrophies happened at almost the same time. That the Greek reporter used the Catastrophe as a time reference is understandable given her background. But the time is nevertheless accurately established. By the way, the only reason I said "during" was that the Asia Minor Catastrophe lasted up to 1923 and Arapian arrived in Greece in 1922, so the Catastrophe was still ongoing. But if the RS says "after" I guess we follow the RS. Let's not forget also that given the subject matter I don't think we are going to find any Google books or peer-reviewed journals reporting on Arapian. Δρ.Κ. λόγοςπράξις 19:50, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
- I have revised ALT4. Proudbolsahye (talk) 20:23, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
- for Alt1 I share BlueMoonset's concerns about the conflation of the Armenian Genocide and the Asia Minor Catastrophe based on the report of single newspaper journalist and assumptions of what she was referencing. And while I can see the "after" wording in Alt4 as a compromise, the wording also neuters some of "punch" of being a refugee fleeing genocide (though I agree it is the most faithful wording according to the available sources) so why not just go with the safer option? The article passes all other DYK criteria (as much as I could check based on the English language sources) and is good to go for Alt1 unless the creators want to wait for someone else to feel more comfortable signing off for the Asia Minor Catastrophe hooks. AgneCheese/Wine 04:05, 17 March 2013 (UTC)