Talk:Zaynu'l-Muqarrabín

How is this incident related to the subject?

"Three or four Baháʼís of Baghdad were killed in the 1860s by Persian celebrators of Ashura, likely offended by Baháʼís celebrating holy days during the Shia ceremonies."
Apart from the relation of this incident with the subject of the article, I would also like to know what celebrations Baha'is were doing on the day of Ashura? The Bab and Baha'u'llah were born on the 1st and 2nd of Moharrum and I believe Ashura is the 10th of Moharrum.Serv181920 (talk) 09:45, 23 January 2021 (UTC)

Ashura is the 10th day of the month of Muharram on the Islamic calendar. The mourning of Muharram starts on the first day of the month and culminates on the 10th. Iranians going on pilgrimage to Karbala would be passing through Baghdad near the first of the month. The birthdays of the Bab and Baha'u'llah were on the 1st and 2nd days of Muharram. So there was a perfect alignment of a large group of pilgrims who were killing Babis in their homeland, passing through Baghdad during a mourning ritual that involves whipping themselves bloody and public wailing, and then seeing their enemies celebrating.

The relevance is that Zaynu'l-Muqarrabin was a leader among a group of 50-70 Baha'is and 3-4 of them were killed. That seems like a significant event in his life. Cuñado ☼ - Talk 17:37, 23 January 2021 (UTC)

I think, that sentence in the article does not clearly establishes a relation between the incident and the subject. Moreover, I think Momen's voice should not be used as wikivoice. The source is citing Kemball's correspondence with Henry Elliot, stating "but during the last Mohurrem they attracted the ill-will of true Shiahs by ridiculing the ceremonies usual with the latter at that season." I also don't see the mention of Ashura in the source.

Regarding weeping / crying / mourning for Husayn (grandson of Mohammed) here is something that might be of interest to you:

"O denizens of the city of names and O countenances residing in the chambers of the all-highest paradise! O companions of faithfulness in the kingdom of eternity! Change ye your glad white and red garments unto black clothes of mourning, for the supreme calamity and the greatest loss hath come to pass, because of which, the Messenger of God hath wailed and lamented and the heart of Fátimih hath melted. Thereupon, the dwellers of the Abhá Tabernacle and those sailing upon the Crimson Ark, seated upon seats of love and loyalty, wept with a great weeping."Serv181920 (talk) 09:47, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

References

The footnote by Momen says, "Baha'is were frequently accused of ridiculing or 'scoffing' at Islam because their joyful celebrations of the birth of the Bab and Baha'u'llah (1st and 2nd of Muharram) coincided with the shi'ih period of mourning for the Imam Husayn.

I can't think of a better way to write it compared to what it says, "three or four Baháʼís of Baghdad were killed by Persian celebrators of Ashura, likely offended by Baháʼís celebrating holy days during the Shia ceremonies". The ref of the murders comes from Kemball and the explanation of why comes from Momen and worded as the "likely" explanation of why it happened. Momen is frequently providing corrections and explanations of primary quotes. For example, above on page 265 the sources says "Beha Allah, the Babite Persian reformer, who appeared in 1843" and the footnote says "Evidently Baha'u'llah is being confused with the Bab here." Other quotes call the Baha'is "Babees". Cuñado ☼ - Talk 18:16, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

So, Are you under the impression that Ashura and Moharram are same? Moharrum is a month and Ashura is the 10th day of Moharrum. Momen's book does not says Ashura, it says Moharrum.Serv181920 (talk) 10:03, 25 January 2021 (UTC)

My comment above: "Ashura is the 10th day of the month of Muharram on the Islamic calendar. The mourning of Muharram starts on the first day of the month and culminates on the 10th." Cuñado ☼ - Talk 22:06, 25 January 2021 (UTC)

You know the difference still you are using the word Ashura although it is not in the source. I have edited the sentence according to the source.Serv181920 (talk) 17:33, 26 January 2021 (UTC)