Talk:Zakariya al-Qazwini

Al-Razi and Al-Qazwini

Is this the same person as Al-Razi? Mahanchian 00:07, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

I dont think so. The National Library of Medicine lists them separately.--Zereshk 00:48, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Persian?

mm, he is descended from Anas ibn Malik so how come he consider persian? Mewoone (talk) 22:10, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

Agreed, I think this should be changed to Arab. Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 18:04, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

I have added two sources for Persian ancestry only because an IP had made some changes. I removed "Persian town", which seemed a little ostentatious for that time. Changed "Persian physicians" to Islamic physicians and "Persian writers" to Islamic writers. --Kansas Bear (talk) 21:32, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for your intervention. Agreed on the Islamic changes. However, for the sources you added, I am not sure about their credibility, as the first one sounds Iranian and the other one is an Arabophobe. Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 04:19, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

I have added two more sources, one for Arab and one for Persian. The changes I made to the categories are red-linked. Sorry, categories are not my area. --Kansas Bear (talk) 05:25, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

Oh come on this is absurd, I have erased the arab part! Claiming that Zakariya is of Arab origins because it descended from Anas ibn Malik that lived 650 years before him is like claiming any American scientist's work (1900) to be of English "Dark Ages" origin (1250)!! Jdbuenoi (talk) 03:19, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

Wikipedia is written using reliable sources. Removal of referenced information is disruptive editing. --Kansas Bear (talk) 02:36, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

Yeah your reliable sources are Encyclopedia Irannica, where there states clearly that he is Persian, they don't mention Arab origins, and they even mention he didn't even write arab well and I quote from YOUR source: "Qazvīnī’s fame rests on two major works of his, both written in Arabic (in fact, a rather indifferent Arabic, indicating that it was clearly not his native tongue and perhaps, too, that he was quoting his sources somewhat carelessly)". He has no Arab origins proven and I'm willing to fight it with a neutral moderator :) Jdbuenoi (talk) 03:19, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

The proof is in the pudding; the moderator was unfortunately duped into editing this page 7 years ago by amateur Arab, Islamocentric revisionists. Not only is it inane to ascribe ethnic identity based on purported ancestors who immigrated to Persia over 6 centuries before al-Qazwini, but the discussion has hitherto failed to acknowledge the common practice among Persian dynasts and nobility of claiming sahabi origins as a tool of power and legitimacy. Few of them actually have proven Arab origins or even the means to prove it; it's a power jest. By this token, we must now scour wikipedia and change every human entry's ethnic identity to that of their ancestor's who lived 650 before them. Pahlevuni (talk) 03:15, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

• "Yeah your reliable sources are Encyclopedia Irannica, where there states clearly that he is Persian.."

Yeah? So we just ignore all other source(s)?

• "..al-Qazwini, a Persian of Arab descent.." -- Jeremy Black, The Power of Knowledge: How Information and Technology Made the Modern World. p. 40
• "In spite of his Persian place-of -origin name al-Qazwini, he was of pure Arab descent." -- Julie Scott Meisami, ‎Paul Starkey, Encyclopedia of Arabic Literature - Volume 2 - Page 439
• " Al-Qazwini القزوينى زكريا ابن محمد بن محمود ابو يحيى (Zakariyya b. Muh. b. Mahmiid abii Yahya) Famous Arab cosmographer and geographer, b. Qazwin ca 600/1203, d. 682/1283" -- Amnon Shiloah, The Theory of Music in Arabic Writings (c. 900-1900), p.153.

Appears that there are sources. --Kansas Bear (talk) 03:22, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

How come someone like Bashar Ibn Burd, who lived in Baghdad and Basra and wrote in Arabic (and others like him), can be identified as "Persian", not "of Persian ancestry", while here someone of Arab ancestry who wrote in Arabic is identified as "Persian of Arab ancestry"? What kind of twisted logic is this? By the way, this is a common practice in Wikipedia, which seems to have become a place for modern nationalist (anachronistic) projections. The funny thing is that someone complains about "Islamocentrism". Well, what else do we have in a pre-nationalist age? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2603:7081:5D07:E706:FDB0:9F97:65E6:2E1 (talk) 14:14, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

Fiction Writer

His writings have nothing to do with Islamic teachings. But thanks to this wikipedia article, people have started quoting his fictional work as "Islamic knowledge/teachings". He was a science fiction writer. He wrote about fictional things, including off world travels. Yes, he wrote about space travel in 13th century. His book The Wonders of Creation is also a work of pure fiction. Don't mix this fiction with Islam. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 45.116.232.57 (talk) 14:20, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

How is the Wonders of Creation a work of fiction? It is a codex of planets, constellations, angels, plant-life, animals and many other things from Wonders of Creation. The images within the manuscripts may look strange and weird, but the descriptions are what matters the most. For example, the "Karkadann" (Rhinoceros) within the work is many of times drawn as a horned horse-like creature (unicorn if you will), but that is mainly because the artists probably never have seen a Rhinoceros and relied on the descriptions that Qazwini has given. But those (usually Persian and Indian) who know of the Rhinoceros would draw the Karkadann as it is, a Rhinoceros. So do not rely on the depictions, but the descriptions. And as the saying goes, never judge a book by its cover.

Oh and by the way, the "Awaj bin Anfaq" written in this article is more than likely a misunderstanding or typo of ‘Uj bin Anaq (عوج بن عنق). So do not believe just anything you read on the internet, go to the source.--MuslimKnight786 (talk) 22:38, 7 May 2018 (UTC)

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Nonsense

User:LouisAragon
What do you mean by "being of Arab descent doesn't make you Arab ethnically" ? that is such a nonsense, ethnicity does not change magically by just being born in a different country. Also what dose Peter the Great has to do here? His article says only his mother is of Tatar origin, a completely different case. You are confusing ethnicity with nationality.
However, if you insist on edit warring than I am deleting Persian categories from Muhammad ibn Abi Bakr al‐Farisi and Abū al‐ʿUqūl since going by your logic, both were no longer "Persian" ethnically for being born in Yemen ! Frasfras17 (talk) 09:28, 21 March 2018 (UTC)

Another episode of Iranian nationalists. Joushal (talk) 03:33, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

Misinformation

Okay you want me to talk about it in the wiki page? sources for what? for him being an Arab that was written literally few lines after "Descendant of Anas bin Malik". Also what in god's name does a Persian mean in that context? There was no Persian empire or a Persian power that had power or identity during that era for the scientist to be a part of. He was born an Arab raised an Arab. His books were in Arabic as you can clearly see from his works listed in the very same wiki page. The land he was living in was a part of the Arab empire "The Abbasid empire". Common sense does not need a source. How about you show us your sources that made him a "Persian"? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 176.202.89.0 (talk • contribs) 22:39, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

A number of high-quality sources are now literally quoted in the first note. Whether these sources warrant a change in the text of the article is up for debate. Though perhaps we might go for something like "Arabo-Persian" (yes, that term exists), I also think it's fine as is now. ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 04:47, 26 September 2021 (UTC)

His nationality

Why was it written that his nationality is Iranian when he lived in the Arab Abbasid Empire? Joushal (talk) 04:17, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

Because the sources cited in the first footnote say so. As a courtesy I will quote them here too for you:

According to Streck 1913–1936, "He belonged to a pure Arab family which had, however, been long settled in the east." Bosworth 1987–2011 calls him a "Persian scholar", while Lewicki 1960–2007 describes him as a "famous Arab cosmographer and geographer" who "drew his origin from an Arab family [...] who had been Persianised after settling at Kaẓwīn in Persia." Both Bosworth 1987–2011 and Lewicki 1960–2007 stress that though he wrote in Arabic, this was not his mother tongue. Black 2014, p. 40 calls him "a Persian of Arab ancestry", Maqbul Ahmad 1981, p. 230 "An Arab by descent".

We maintain a neutral point of view towards reliable sources. Unless you bring up other reliable sources which say something else, this is not up for debate. Thanks, ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 10:05, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

I’m talking about the nationality, Iran was not exist during his time, he was under Arab Abbasid Empire. He was not Iranian Joushal (talk) 14:07, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

"of either Persian or Arab ancestry"?

All the sources are clear on Qazwini's Arab ancestry and not a single one here mentions that he is of Persian ancestry so what is the reason for this turn of phrase? Why saying that he may be of Persian descent when the sources explicitly say the opposite...

The fact that Qazwini was born in Iran does not make him a Persian, Iran is a country with multiple identities and peoples, so shouldn't we rather write "Born in Qazvin, in a family of Arab origin who had settled in Iran for a long time" instead?

Borneo45 (talk) 19:47, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

Iran was still not a country back then. Moreover, this is what the cited sources says;

According to Streck 1913–1936, "He belonged to a pure Arab family which had, however, been long settled in the east." Bosworth 1987–2011 calls him a "Persian scholar", while Lewicki 1960–2007 describes him as a "famous Arab cosmographer and geographer" who "drew his origin from an Arab family [...] who had been Persianised after settling at Kaẓwīn in Persia." Both Bosworth 1987–2011 and Lewicki 1960–2007 stress that though he wrote in Arabic, this was not his mother tongue. Black 2014, p. 40 calls him "a Persian of Arab ancestry", Maqbul Ahmad 1981, p. 230 "An Arab by descent".

In other words;

Streck calls him an Arab whose family however had been far from home in a long time.

Bosworth calls him a Persian and says his mother tongue was not Arabic.

Lewicki calls him a Persianized Arab and says his mother tongue was not Arabic.

Black calls him a Persian of Arab descent.

Maqbul Ahmad calls him an Arab.

So where did you get that conclusion from? HistoryofIran (talk) 20:05, 18 April 2024 (UTC)