Talk:Zagwe dynasty

REFERENCES

Can you guys please always add sources? --HalaqaTruth(ሀላካሕ) 00:57, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Anachronism ?

"Around 960, Queen Gudit destroyed the remnants of the Aksumite Empire causing a shift in its temporal power centre that later regrouped more to the south. For 40 years she ruled over those remnants, eventually passing them on to her descendants. According to other Ethiopian traditional accounts, the last of her dynasty was overthrown by Mara Takla Haymanot in 1137. He married a daughter of the last king of Axum, Dil Na'od, putting control of Ethiopia in Agaw hands."

This makes no sense. Dil Na'od lived in the 9th and 10th century and was the last king of Aksum, of which the last remnants were destroyed in 960. So how does he have a daughter of marriageable age ( even elderley marriageable age ) to Mara Takla, a whopping 177 years later ? Was this the Methusalid dynasty, or what ?122.106.205.74 (talk) 16:33, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

yeah it is complicated Braganza (talk) 16:35, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

It's not complicated: Most ancient (and modern) African History on Wikipedia is fabrication - part revisionist History by students with an ideological bent and part invention. Sadly, anybody using Wikipedia as a source for History is naive in the extreme and yet you see these errors compounded in modern media everywhere. 2001:8003:70F5:2400:F1A4:DC59:8E2A:5BF8 (talk) 23:30, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

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History

How did zagwe dynasty emerge to christian state power? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 196.190.186.139 (talk) 09:37, 28 November 2022 (UTC)

Article dedicated to the entity

Socialwave597 (talk · contribs) reverted the move of this page to Zagwe Kingdom. Again: Wikipedia needs an article dedicated to the political entity, not just the dynasty. Ethiopian Empire and Solomonic Dynasty are two separate articles as well, after all. Therefore, Zagwe Dynasty should discuss the family, "Zagwe Kingdom" the political entity it ruled.

In addition, what "sources" are your referring to, Socialwave597? "Zagwe" is a Solomonic term not found in contemporary sources. Following Marie Laure-Derat, the kingdom they ruled was most likely called "Begwana", which was the historical name for the Lasta province. LeGabrie (talk) 18:46, 7 December 2023 (UTC)

@LeGabrie The political entity is referred to as the "Zagwe Dynasty" by various authorities such as Taddesse Tamrat[1], Haggai Erlich[2], Richard Pankhurst, etc. Hence, per WP:COMMONNAME, the article must be titled the "Zagwe Dynasty". In fact, I've never came across any source that called this the "Zagwe Kingdom". Socialwave597 (talk) 20:21, 7 December 2023 (UTC)

There is a difference between the ruling family and the polity they are ruling over. This is why Ethiopian Empire and Solomonic Dynasty; Habsburg Monarchy and House of Habsburg; or Ottoman Empire and Ottoman Dynasty are separate entires. Your sources are all pretty dated anyway and do not consider the progress made over the last decade by the likes of Marie-Laure Derat or Mikael Muehlbauer. And again: "Zagwe" is a retroperspective term and their kingdom was probably called "Begwana". For more see Marie Laure Derat (2020): "Before the Solomonids: Crisis, Renaissance and the Emergence of the Zagwe Dynasty (Seventh–Thirteenth Centuries)" in "A Companion to Medieval Ethiopia and Eritrea". I will notice an admin. LeGabrie (talk) 22:59, 7 December 2023 (UTC)

The ruling family of the Zagwe is not notable enough to have its own article (WP:N), hence it cannon be compared to the Habsburg or the Solomonic Dynasty. If you want to add content about the royal family of the Zagwe this is the article to do so. Secondly I would like to see some sources explicitly calling this polity the "zagwe kingdom" because Marie calls it the "Zagwe Dynasty" in this document[3]. There's no need to create content forks here, we need to satsify WP:COMMONNAME first. Nevertheless I would accept whatever a third opinion suggests. Socialwave597 (talk) 23:15, 7 December 2023 (UTC)

• "The ruling family of the Zagwe is not notable enough to have its own article (WP:N), hence it cannon be compared to the Habsburg or the Solomonic Dynasty."
  

Says who? The Zagwe dynasty spawned two (Yemrehana Krestos and Lalibela) of Ethiopia's holiest kings with their own hagiography. One could easily dedicate a medium-sized entry to the Zagwe family, including the various contradicting traditions concerning the line of succession and its impact on Ethiopian Christianity.

• "Secondly I would like to see some sources explicitly calling this polity the "zagwe kingdom" because Marie calls it the "Zagwe Dynasty" in this document[4]."

No, on page 172 she proposes that the polity was called "kingdom of Begwena". So we can either call the entry "Zagwe Kingdom" or "Kingdom of Begwena". LeGabrie (talk) 23:33, 7 December 2023 (UTC)

We need to see some sources explicitly calling this "Zagwe Kingdom" - otherwise that would be original research. There's plenty of sources calling this polity the "Zagwe Dynasty" so I don't see the need to change the title. Begwena can be added to the body of the article (also known as Begwena). Socialwave597 (talk) 03:21, 16 December 2023 (UTC)