Talk:Yoshiaki Omura/Arbitration request

The Actual Situation

The above would fool the beginner here but not those with any experience of you.

The following facts sum up the situation:

(1) Crum and GR have continuously reverted full consensus mediated agreements that they were fully party to.

2) They have denied (1) above repeatedly - until I showed them the archives where there words and agreements are documented. Then they try to weedle out of it.

3) Crum has continuously "resisted the mediation" in the words of the last Mediator, to the extent that the Mediator gave up. Crum shows no real intention to do anything totally unbiased or act in any kind of good faith way:

4) Crum has displayed a "continual lack of good faith" during the mediation process, in the words of the Mediator. He has in fact acted in continuous bad faith throughout.

5) Crum and GR have teamed up to out-revert me in order tomaintain (1-4) above and in so doing make a mockery of WP.

6) GR and Crum have serious memory problems in good faith - otherwise we have no option but to understand that they are just prepared to lie whenever it suits them.

7) I will be requesting Arbitration ASAP. Richardmalter 06:37, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

If you feel that to be the appropriate course, I would suggest you do so. GenghizRat 06:50, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

I have just reversed your reversion to your and the Anonymous Dots form, restoring the version as per the efforts of myself, Crum, and AR. I would once again ask you to refrain from personal attacks. If you feel you can make arguments in discussion to convince others of the merits of your positions, please do so. Alternatively, if seeking arbitration seems to you the most appropriate course, please do so. GenghizRat 06:59, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Richard: please do not quote me out of context or ascribe motives to me which I have not expressed. I closed the mediation because it was getting nowhere, as every possibly avenue was rejected by some disputant or other, not necessarily by Crum. Just because Crum was the last person with whom I was frustrated before I decided to close the case does not mean he was the only person with whom I was frustrated. I suggest that you allow me to recount what I said as I deem necessary, because the last thing I want is comments I made in a good faith but ultimately frustrating attempt to mediate turned into barbs devoid of context used against other editors. If you're going to fight, please do so with your own words, not with mine. - Che Nuevara 07:08, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Afterthought: please notify me on my talk page if an Arbitration case is opened. - Che 07:09, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Will do. Thanks, again, for the effort. GenghizRat 07:17, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarification, Che, much appreciated. Crum375 12:48, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Che, because Crum and GR are prepared to act in such an underhand way, I have little choice but to use reliable neutral third party citations, such as your own, to describe their actions. I do not hold it against you one bit for giving up; but please realize that in actuality I have been left again after months of my efforts to resolve this through mediation, acting in good faith, 'against' two people who will lie if necessary or perhaps just have terribly bad memories is kinder to say about them - if they want to. Your comments are public record and I will recall them word for word in proper context. You said to Crum:

Truth is, it did find another consensus: we all agreed that we could start over and build from the ground up. And we all agreed to stop revert warring. Retracting those comments now does not mean that this consensus was not reached. I find this and similar reverts to be in extremely bad faith

Your insistence to interpret agreements to the letter, rather than in spirit, shows a continued lack of good faith

You are now the one being resistant to mediation. Richard has agreed to work on a rewrite. Any more accusations that "conflict of interest" is holding up this mediation are completely devoid of merit. Either you're willing to work on this in the way that two independent editors suggested, or you aren't. It's very simple. Yes or no

You never said to me that I was acting in bad faith, nor that I was blocking progress - because I was not, I agreed with and stated so about just about everything you proposed, if not everything, be it both procedural and content. Crum blocked this all the way and stretched every reasonable effort by you to ridiculous, underhand lengths. Above on this page you will find that he tried to lie his way out of his agreements in the previous round of mediation - until I pinned him down about it and then he still tried to weedle his way out of it by calling them "minor technicalities" - which were in fact usages of citations (hardy minor technicalities as this is exactly what he continually blocked your efforts by arguing ad infinitum over to the point of you giving up). Your words form third party reliable statements as part of this record. I will certainly notify you re Arbitration. Do you suggest this is the best way to go?Richardmalter 13:14, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Che, my afterthought, I am guessing you know this, but what they really want, especially Crum, is to keep this completely WP unacceptable version up as long as they can and protract and discussion ad infinitum - that way Crum considers that he is 'winning'. He wont admit it but that is the reality - that is why he would not leave a stub. Sometimes you just have to call a spade a spade and accept that someone has no good faith whatsoever. Richardmalter 13:18, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Richard, I will assume that despite all the harsh words you have for me, which you have repeated many times here and on Che's Talk page, somewhere underneath the critical rhetoric you do understand that all I want is what's good for WP, and that deep inside you still trust my integrity and honesty (although you may not externally admit it). Even if I am wrong, and your lack of trust goes all the way down to your core, it may still be worth your while to listen.

As I see it, you have 2 choices. You can continue to work on the Talk page with the three of us who support the current version (GR, AR and myself), and any others who may join us, to try to make it better. As you may note, all three of us have listed issues that we think need work, and this includes Che's list also. You are more than welcome to participate with us here on the Talk page, by providing your personal perspective of BDORT. If you do choose this option, I would appreciate if you refrain from editing the article directly, as you clearly have a conflict of interest, per your web page, with your name being listed alongside Omura's and others on some public documents. We will pay careful attention to all your comments and will ensure that anything that meets WP's requirements will be properly reflected in the article.

Alternatively, you can file for Arbitration. This is purely your choice, and you are free to do so at any time.

Thanks, Crum375 14:08, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

I will repeat myself (hopefully) clearly: I closed the mediation because all paths I could conceive of were thwarted in some way or another. There were times in this mediation, both in the archives and in the period that I worked, when everyone acted in a less than exemplary fashion. I tried my best throughout the entire mediation to refrain from commenting on these incidents because I believed it served the interests of neutrality. By the bitter end I was nearly to the point of losing my religion and called Crum out on behavior which I found frustrating. But the absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence. I stand by my claim that my comments stand on the page in context. If you believe what you are saying of Crum, then you can support that with your own words, and it should suffice. I once again respectfully request that you leave my words to express my opinion, not yours. As far as Arbitration goes, I cannot and will not give advice on whether and how to file the case, as it would compromise my position in the process. Thank you for your understanding. - Che Nuevara 17:40, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Richard, I think everyone here understands your frustration. Indeed, from our varying perspectives, I believe we've all shared it. As I've said, my comprehension of this situation is very straightforward: There are sincerely held opposed perceptions both as to reality and as to what is appropriate for this entry per Wikipedia criteria. I respectfully suggest you consider your course and make your decision as to whether or not in fact you wish to pursue arbitration. GenghizRat 20:06, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

The point is GR, that you don't even have the good faith and will to start from a stub that many people said is obviously the sensible way to go. I have explained above why Crum will not agree to this. You also both do not keep to agreements. I will not bother repeating more than this. You and Crum are unique in that documented mediated consensus decisions - you pretend did not happen and revert. You wont keep to your agreements. You are trying to 'liberalize' and be 'objective' and hide the hard facts. Did you or did you not participate in mediation that resulted in the words "discussion closed and action taken as agreed"? When you have the decency to keep your agreements, and Crum too, then I will start to listen, not before. Crum, I have no faith in you whatsoever regarding this entry, your behavior as I have documented it is the reason. I have told both of you that you must have serious memory problems or that you are liars. It is documented above - Crum tried to say that he agreed to nothing "whatsoever" until I forced him to admitt it. You GR are much the same. Richardmalter 21:08, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

As I indicated, my perception is that there are markedly different perceptions as to the underlying realities and Wikipedia processes. I am perfectly content to stand on the record. I would appreciate it if you would desist from personal attacks. I would again respectfully suggest that you either offer arguments and evidence in an attempt to convince others to your positions or, alternatively, seek arbitration or similar appropriate mechanism. GenghizRat 21:18, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

GR, I consider lying a personal attack. I ask you to desist from it immediately. The point is GR, you perception may be whatever you dream it is, but that you don't even have the good faith and will to start from a stub that many people said is obviously the sensible way to go. I have explained above why Crum will not agree to this. You also both do not keep to agreements. I will not bother repeating more than this. You and Crum are unique here in that documented mediated consensus decisions - you pretend did not happen and revert. You wont keep to your agreements. You are trying to 'liberalize' and be 'objective' and say 'everyone is frustrated etc' and hide the hard facts. Did you or did you not participate in mediation that resulted in the words "discussion closed and action taken as agreed"?? The answer is you did. When you have the decency to keep your agreements, and Crum too, then I will start to listen, not before. Crum, I have no faith in you whatsoever regarding this entry, your behavior as I have documented it is the reason. You would make a politician worthy of the worst of them. I have told both of you that you must have serious memory problems or that you are liars. This is not opinion, it is documented above - Crum tried to say that he agreed to nothing "whatsoever" until I forced him to admit it. You GR are much the same. I hope that is clear. Richardmalter 21:08, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Another afterthought GR. You once asked me to keep your real identity private. In good faith I have as I said I would. You have not returned my good faith. When you keep your agreements, I will know that you have decided to - not before. I will only judge by actions not by any words that you will write here.Richardmalter 21:24, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

I take it then you are now making real world threats against other editors? GenghizRat 21:30, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

As usual GR your 'perceptions' differ widely from reality.Richardmalter 21:31, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm content, as I've indicated, to let others judge by the record. I would ask you to state explicitly, then, that you intend no such attempt, if you would be so kind. GenghizRat 21:36, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

A Test of Honesty for Crum375 and GenghizRat

Crum375, Did you or did you not participate voluntarily in mediation that resulted in a discussion that ended in the words that you did not contest: "discussion closed and action taken as agreed"??

GenghizRat AKA all the other handles you have used, Did you or did you not participate voluntarily in mediation that resulted in a discussion that ended in the words that you did not contest: "discussion closed and action taken as agreed"??

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Yoshiaki_Omura/MediationArchive_1

Answer just 'yes' or 'no'. Richardmalter 21:28, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Richard, I would once again ask you to desist from attacks and threats. I have previously indicated a significant part of my motive in periodically changing handles was precisely conern over this issue. I raised it early in moderation as a concern. I have never overlapped use of handles, and admins can easily track my contributions as I have never changed my actual IP. My concern is precisely the reason why Wikipedia offers contributors the option of handles. I must insist you desist from personal attacks and threats. GenghizRat 21:34, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

GR, first, you did not answer the Test of Honesty. Will you not? Second I make or made no attacks or threats. You have a fantastic imagination. Now, the Test of Honesty still stands.Richardmalter 21:39, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

The record speaks for itself on all counts, in my judgement. GenghizRat 21:43, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Richard, as I assume I am not under interrogation, and you are not my interrogator, I think you'd allow me more than just a 'yes' or 'no'. On the assumption that you do, let me continue. I searched the archives for your quote above, and found it in 2 cases.

One had to do with the 'Quackery' categorization. You know my general opinion about that issue, which has not changed much from day one. I also included it as a question in my list of issues that need clarification above. Also, since that time when that discussion was held, we found and discussed a new source, so that specific discussion is obsolete due to new evidence.

The second place I found the quote was in the Lu discussion. What happened there was that a link that was negative to Omura 'mysteriously' disappeared (became non-functional) after it was used a reference here. My only agreement in that case was that we can't use dead links (although I understand there is some proposal now to allow the use of cached links, probably irrelevant in this case).

In both cases above, I don't see any contradiction between my position then and today, although some new material was discovered since and may require further discussion. I don't know if this makes me pass or fail your 'honesty test', but it is my honest attempt to reply. Crum375 21:46, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

No, Crum you fail. We discussed:

reference in the article, Quackwatch characterization of the Bi-Digital O-Ring Test or 'Omura Test' en passant.

Nothing since then has changed this consensus. Do you dispute that the consensus for use of this citation for this purpose has remained unchanged and never been challenged?Richardmalter 02:35, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Richard, regarding that issue, I agreed that the reference needs to be changed to a different sub-page in the same Quackwatch site, which will show that BDORT is considered as Quackery by that specific reference. When we get to actually edit the version then we can make that minor change. I also have other outstanding items on my todo list above. I have not changed my mind about this, if this is your point. Crum375 02:52, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

I think it would be helpful, Richard, if you offered argument and evidence. It seems to me there is clearly a sincere difference on the part of all parties as to matters of interpretation. GenghizRat 02:54, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

No, Crum, as Che the last mediator said of you [though I understand he is trying to remain neutral] Your insistence to interpret agreements to the letter, rather than in spirit, shows a continued lack of good faith. You have just restated that as it is unacceptable as is - we still have consensus; then why don't you take it out. Without even a beginning of good faith from you are not taken seriously. Arbitration will follow as soon as I get a minute to register it.Richardmalter 03:06, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Richard, I have refrained from making any edit myself to the article (besides selecting other people's versions) in a very long time - maybe months. I do intend to start making some edits myself at some point, once we agree on a working mode. Right now, I don't know yet how we plan to proceed, and I guess we are waiting for you to decide if you'd like to be working with us on this Talk page, going thru all our outstanding items in our combined lists, and maybe adding your own, or not, per my offer to you above. If you are starting ArbCom, then we need to work on the ArbCom case. It's your call. Crum375 03:16, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

To repeat Che's words to you: the neutral Mediator that you wore down:

Truth is, it did find another consensus: we all agreed that we could start over and build from the ground up. And we all agreed to stop revert warring. Retracting those comments now does not mean that this consensus was not reached. I find this and similar reverts to be in extremely bad faith

Your insistence to interpret agreements to the letter, rather than in spirit, shows a continued lack of good faith

You are now the one being resistant to mediation. Richard has agreed to work on a rewrite. Any more accusations that "conflict of interest" is holding up this mediation are completely devoid of merit. Either you're willing to work on this in the way that two independent editors suggested, or you aren't. It's very simple. Yes or no

His comments stand. He was the Mediator. He said the above. He knew what he was saying.Richardmalter 03:10, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

The Mediator, Che, also said that you were misrepresenting the community consensus. He gave you the benefit of the doubt about it; I dont.Richardmalter 03:13, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

I think it would be helpful, Richard, if you let us know whether you intend to press on for Arbitration, so that we may prepare to present the matter properly, or if you prefer to continue here. If you would prefer to continue here, I would again ask that you advance arguments and evidence for your positions. GenghizRat 03:21, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Richard, despite all your derogatory/defamatory comments towards me, I harbor no ill feelings towards you, as I suspect you are just frustrated. I do want you to participate with us productively, as I offered above. But to do so you will need to start focusing on the subject at hand, BDORT, and not on Crum-bashing. I think you've made your points, Che responded to them, I responded to them, and now it's time to move forward. Thanks, Crum375 03:24, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. It's an intrinsically difficult situation. The question, I agree, is how best to proceed. GenghizRat 03:28, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

I have said nothing derogatory; whereas you have about me and others many times. You avoid the point of discussion repeatedly in a clever sounding way which pulls wool over no one's eyes; just like you did repeatedly with Che. You refuse to keep to mediated consensus agreements. (GR does not even try to defend himself). How do you expect progress to be made' I cannot take you or your good faith seriously. As Che said

Truth is, it did find another consensus: we all agreed that we could start over and build from the ground up. And we all agreed to stop revert warring. Retracting those comments now does not mean that this consensus was not reached. I find this and similar reverts to be in extremely bad faith

Your insistence to interpret agreements to the letter, rather than in spirit, shows a continued lack of good faith

You are now the one being resistant to mediation. Richard has agreed to work on a rewrite. Any more accusations that "conflict of interest" is holding up this mediation are completely devoid of merit. Either you're willing to work on this in the way that two independent editors suggested, or you aren't. It's very simple. Yes or noRichardmalter 03:36, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Also, while he can clearly speak for himself, he may or may not be actively monitoring this strand at present – I think Che was quite clear a short time ago, Richard, that he felt you ought not represent his opinions sans context in this space, but allow him to speak for himself. Perhaps I misunderstood, but that was my reading, and, frankly given the hell he went through attempting to mediate, for which I think we all bear a share of responsbility, I think that wish ought be respected. GenghizRat 03:41, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Summing up Crum's position

IT IS A FACT AGAIN DOCUMENTED JUST ABOVE THAT YOU (and GR) REVERT AND MAINTAIN A REVERSION OF MEDIATED CONSENSUS AGREEMENTS THAT YOU WERE FULLY PART OF. THIS IS BREACH OF PROCESS IN ANY KIND OF GOOD FAITH Richardmalter 03:36, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Richard, please stay off the caps, I understand you are frustrated. I suggest you take some time and decide your best course of action. If you do want to work with us here on the Talk page to try to improve the article, the door is always open, as I mentioned above. Thanks, Crum375 03:41, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Richard, you indicated above that I am avoiding responding to your 'charge.' I'm not avoiding it. This ground has been covered a thousand times. I simply don't feel it appropriate to respond to your demands. If you wish to see my thoughts, simply revisit the record. GenghizRat 03:42, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

I respectfully suggest the same. This has been a trying process for all parties involved, and it might be best to take a bit, get a bit of perspective, and simply decide on a course of action as seems to you appropriate. GenghizRat 03:44, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Crum, please keep to agreements. If you do want to work here in a way that is appropriate to good faith then please do. Until you do: IT IS A FACT AGAIN DOCUMENTED JUST ABOVE THAT YOU (and GR) REVERT AND MAINTAIN A REVERSION OF MEDIATED CONSENSUS AGREEMENTS THAT YOU WERE FULLY PART OF. THIS IS BREACH OF PROCESS IN ANY KIND OF GOOD FAITH

I respectfully request that you keep to agreements. I am simply making sure that you actions are well documented.Richardmalter 03:51, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Richard, all our words and actions are automatically recorded on WP - you don't need to shout in caps to make them 'stick'. Again, please take some time to decide what you want. If you want to work here on the Talk page with us as I offered above, please let us know. If you want to file for Arbitration, that's your choice. But please take your time and decide what you want, just posting capped messages is counter-productive. Crum375 04:00, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Summing up GR's position objectively

IT IS A FACT AGAIN DOCUMENTED JUST ABOVE THAT GR (AKA all the other handles he has used) REVERTS AND MAINTAINS A REVERSION OF MEDIATED CONSENSUS AGREEMENTS THAT HE WAS FULLY PART OF. THIS IS BREACH OF PROCESS IN ANY KIND OF GOOD FAITH Richardmalter 03:54, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

I would again ask that you refrain from personal attacks and either move for arbitration or advance an argument and evidence for any proposed changes in the entry. GenghizRat 03:58, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

I make no attack whatsoever. I document facts. 'Getting offended' is a poor way to avoid the question and a well known strategy to avoid facing up to your lack of faith; keeping to agreements would do you much more credit; - again your perceptions are fantasies; are you a poet?Richardmalter 04:28, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Also, Richard, you've indicated quite clearly that you're a practitioner in this area. Perhaps this is inappropriate on my part and out of bounds, so feel free to rebuke me if I'm wrong to pose the question, but why not simply put together a demonstration or experiment for outside review and scrutiny per Wikipedia criteria as to verifiability and settle the matter? Alternatively, you indicated a fairly brief time ago that you had flown to New York to attend Dr Omura's Symposium. Were there any papers presented there or referred to in discussion that you might offer for consideration? GenghizRat 04:17, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

A long time ago you asked me this; look up the answer. However there would not be much point if you and Crum were involved - since you do not keep agreements anyway. There is no point. When you show some good faith by keeping agreements and not showing continued lack of good faith and resist mediation - as the last Mediator, Che told Crum, we will have a procedural base. Richardmalter 04:28, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

I thought you might have since become willing to present BDORT or some of Omura's other practices and procedures to outside scrutiny, or that someone else might have done so, and you might have learned of it while attending Omura's New York Seminar.

Do you mean to indicate, then, from your comment above, that you are unwilling to offer argument and evidence for your positions? GenghizRat 04:32, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

No, it would indicate my advice to you that you would be foolish to proceed with anyone who did not keep their agreements. Richardmalter 05:18, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Notability

Another aspect of the dilemma here may be the marginal notability of this entry. I had previously nominated the entry for deletion on that basis, and the consensus went against me. Simply to repeat the point, for whatever it's worth, not to reargue it, it seems to me that the only clear basis for notability per Wikipedia criteria is the New Zealand Tribunal. All other sources are, at least to my eye, dubious at best as to acceptability. Hence, I think, part of the reason for this maelstrom. GenghizRat 21:54, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

I think the voluminous discussion during the last AfD addressed these issues in excruciating detail. The consensus, after cutting down a small virtual forest, was that the combined Omura/BDORT was/is notable, though it requires further work. It's our job here to keep improving it. Crum375 22:25, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

It has always been my belief that the NZ tribunal source is the only significant source that can be considered reliable for WP:V. Without it, we don't have anything to base the article on. --Philosophus ^T 03:02, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

As I say, I'm not attempting to reargue the issue. I'm aware we had opposite perspectives in that debate. I accept that it was settled as notable. I mean, though, to flag, once again, that I think a core dilemma with the intractability of this entry to date stems from the paucity of sources acceptable per Wikipedia criteria. GenghizRat 22:29, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Comparing it to many articles I have worked on and typical WP articles in general, the current version is actually fairly reasonably sourced. I do agree, as I have noted many times here, that the NZT reference is the most important and reliable source for this article, around which all the rest revolves. Crum375 22:36, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Point taken. GenghizRat 22:38, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Arbitration

Has been requested because:

(1) Crum and GR have continuously reverted full consensus mediated agreements that they were fully party to.

2) They have denied (1) above repeatedly - until I showed them the archives where there words and agreements are documented. But still they avoid their agreements.

3) Crum has continuously "resisted mediation" in the words of the last Mediator, Che, to the extent that the Mediator gave up. Crum shows no real intention to do anything totally unbiased or act in any kind of good faith way:

4) Crum has displayed a "continual lack of good faith" during the mediation process, in the words of the Mediator. He has in fact acted in continuous bad faith throughout.

5) Crum and GR have teamed up to out-revert me in order to maintain (1-4) above and in so doing make a mockery of WP.

[1]

Perhaps I'm in procedural error here, Richard, but I believe you ought now make your points in arbitration rather than here. GenghizRat 05:14, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Lets just keep the record straight here for future reference.Richardmalter 05:16, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

I believe you've made your position clear, Richard. I suggest you make your arguments, and offer evidence. GenghizRat 05:55, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

3RR

Richard, as noted here on your discussion page [2] I believe you are again in violation of 3RR, having made by my count 4 reverts within the last 24 hours under both your user name and anon IP. If my understanding is correct, I would respectfully suggest you restore the previous version of the entry as a minimal sign of willingness to abide by Wikipedia rules and processes. If I am in some way in error, please feel free to correct me. GenghizRat 08:54, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

I regret that as you've taken no action to self-revert, I've reported you as once again in willful violation. GenghizRat 09:38, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

I would once again suggest...

I would again suggest, Richard, that you simply attempt to make your case, offer your arguments and evidence, in an attempt to persuade others, either here or in Arbitration, rather than apparently insisting on your 'right' to violate the rules and processes of the community because you find yourself in disagreement with others. GenghizRat 09:42, 13 December 2006 (UTC)