Talk:Yoruba people/Archive 1

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Proposed Split

Seems the document is a mixture of both Yorùbá and Yorùbáland. Shall we separate the two?

I agree. This is the same thing I'm looking at in the mixture of Lagos and Lagos State entries. Unfortunately, if we separate them as they are now there will be very little information on either page. I'll try to set aside some time in the next month to put together better pages for both topics. It seems to me that there should ideally be at least two Yoruba pages, one for the language, one giving a general description of Yoruba history. Then a separate Yorubaland page talking about the historical area. Or perhaps Yorubaland should remain a section of the general Yoruba entry until there's enough information there to justify a separate entry. Rjhatl 01:50, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Samuel Ajayi Crowther should be linked in somewhere since he was the fisrt person to write down the language--nixie 01:44, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Actually the Yorubaland history is very well documented, and that article alone, after more time is spent, will generate enough content that in time will be need to be sub-divided even further. Until then I would say that we should seperate the articles as the content grows and demands it.

Small Merry making tribe

Please, lets take the racist caricatures of Africans out of wikipedia. There are over 25 million people, hardly a small tribe. There are more of them in Africa than there are in Australia or Portugal. And the Yorub are far more sophisticated than being a merry-making tribe.

Posted by 208.254.174.242 (talk · contribs) some time ago. I'm not sure what you're talking about. — mark ✎ 13:26, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

Crowther and the rise of a common Yoruba identity

Mention needs to be made of the importance of Crowther's work for the rise of a common Yoruba identity. The people that consider themselves Yoruba today lacked a common name before the 1840's, although they shared their history. Don't yell {{sofixit}} at me, this is as much a suggestion for other editors as a reminder to myself to come back here. — mark ✎ 10:58, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

Yoruba religion

Recently a lot of content on Yoruba religion has been added. I propose to move this to Yoruba religion or Yoruba (religion). Both the ethnic group and the religion deserve their own articles. — mark ✎ 06:59, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

Ah, I forgot Yoruba mythology, which seems to be the main place for stuff on Yoruba religion. — mark ✎ 11:57, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

Odùduwà

Why is Odùduwà mentioned as the first item in this list about Yoruba?

Yoruba population and %

Yoruba population is above 40 million . My reason is base of govt figures. Please visit http://www.nigpost.com to see villages, town and cities in Nigeria. Please Note that that yoruba fall into 9 state. Count the number of villages, town and cities in nigeria and compare this with the yoruba figure of Oyo, ogun, ondo, ekiti, osun, lagos, kwara, Part of Kogi, and part of edo state. You would see that the yoruba have about 40% of the settlement in Nigeria. And when you compare comparison statictics from the office of statictics from radiom sample. The yoruba are 30% of the poulation but because of Hausa/fualni Military govt, who have alter the census to favour themself. Please Also download a copy of google earth satellite image and see the satellite image of Nigeria. which show clear that their are more setttlement in Yoruba land than any other part.

remember more people live in/migrate to the west (especially Lagos).c'mon i have been livin' in lag all my life n i aint yoruba.abeg no yarn bout census,lets wait 4 d results of d new 1.btw,no1 really cares whos d largest.so as my mum wud say - wetin concern agbero wit ovaload.--Adaobi 04:02, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

you do not need to wait.. check google earth, download it, it solve your problem.. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nigeriamajor (talk • contribs)

Anyway, the problem with the satellite pictures has had enough coverage on Talk:Nigeria, so let's leave it there. — mark ✎ 18:39, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

MArk we dont leave that way, what you are doing my cause war in Nigeria.. You have place a minority ethnics group over a majority ethnics group, which show clearly on google earth that Yorubas are the majority. Mark, if you know anything about geography. You show see from google earth, that the yoruba make up about 35% of the population of nigeria.. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nigeriamajor (talk • contribs)

I only said that it's better to keep the discussion in one place, namely there were it started: Talk:Nigeria. As for the statistics, are you aware that the Hausa and Fulani are taken together? That's probably because they all speak Hausa. Together, Hausa and (ethnic) Fulani are certainly larger than the Yoruba. If taken separately, it might be close, but as far as I know we have to reliable sources to go on. (And no, satellite pictures are not reliable sources. — mark ✎ 13:16, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

I am not particularly troubled by this, but the population figures do seem to be inaccurate. If Yorubas are 30% of the Nigerian population, then that should yield more than 30 million people in Nigeria alone since the CIA World Factbook's conservative estimates pin the population at 131 million (https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/ni.html). Coupled with populations in West Africa that stretch from Republic of Benin through Togo and Ghana to Cote D' Ivoire (these are small, but numerically significant nonetheless), I'm not sure how the writer arrived at the 30 million figure. Again, I don't consider it particularly important but it does seem to be a glaring contradiction.

Osomalo 04:12, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

It's not that I want that number to be as low as possible. I would support giving a higher figure of say "approx. 35 million" or "upward of 35 million". However, we have to cite a source for that, and combining two sources (the CIA for the total and another one for the percentage) of course will not do. That is why I have put the number at that given by the most recent printed source I came across. — mark ✎ 06:04, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Pulled out pending verification

I've pulled out the following paragraph:

The Yoruba were one of the most urbanized sub-saharan Africans in the pre-colonial era, and have a history of town-dwelling that goes back to 500 A.D. The wealth of the Yoruba came from controlling the important trade routes between the coast and the hinterland. Trade caravans exchanged the agricultural products of the forest economies, including kolanuts and yam with textiles, metalwork, leatherwork and other goods imported through the Saharan trade.

Surely some of this needs to go back into the article in some way (the bit about trade, for starters), but especially the first few lines need citation. Where does the date of 500 AD come from? 'One of the most urbanized' - how does one measure that? Reverend Johnson did great work in recording the oral traditions of the Ọyọ Yoruba, but we'll need more solid sources to base our account of Yoruba history on. We also need the broader West-African context in order to assess the the merit of statements like the ones I pulled out.

In Sources of Yoruba History (S.O. Biabaku, Oxford University Press 1973) I couldn't find anything supporting the date and the statement about urbanization. The reason probably is that there is no solid evidence to make such statements. — mark ✎ 18:00, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

OK, I'm getting somewhere: Oyelaran 1998 ('Early settlement and archaeological sequence of Northeast Yorubaland') reports the results of archaeological research at the confluence of the Niger and Benue rivers. According to him, excavations at the sites Itaakpa, Oluwaju, and Adda indicate that human settlement there dates back to "the ceramic phase of the West African Late Stone Age" and that rock shelters in the area have been occupied from at least 300 BC. The consensus seems to be that the Northeastern Yorubas are autochthonous to the area, though Oyelaran notes a competing theory which supposes influence from Old Oyo and Ile-Ife.

• Oyelaran, Philip A. (1998) 'Early settlement and archaeological sequence of Northeast Yorubaland', African Archaeological Review, 15, 1, 65-79.

— mark ✎ 14:00, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Mark--I believe the cited date comes from archaeological work done on Ife, which was originally a cluster of 13 or so villages that fused into a larger town/city around that time. I can't think of an exact source, but perhaps you would be able to verify the number based on that info. I do know that the naturalistic bronze and terra cotta work that Ife is famous for has been conclusively dated to the 12th-14th centuries, so that might be of some help also.

Pulled out pending verification

I had inserted a sentence stating that the Yoruba are largest single ethno-lingusitic group or ethnic nation in Nigeria and the largest in Africa, but another Wikipedian changed this to "second-largest" in Africa.

It will be great to know which is the largest single African ethno-lingusitic group or ethnic nation. I thought it is a well-known fact that the Yoruba are the largest single African ethnic nation. The Arabs may be the lingusitic group but not when talking of "ethno-lingusitic groups or ethnic nations." I am changing this back to the "largest single ethnic nation", except the changer supplies the name of the alternative "largest single ethnic nation". —Preceding unsigned comment added by HRH (talk • contribs)

Good idea to take it to talk first. I'm never such a fan of rankings like that, but in any case, either side will have to cite sources for their estimates. Concerning the number of 40 million ethnic Yoruba given in the article, I'm not entirely sure where it comes from. What I find in most ethnolinguistic sources are numbers like 22 or 25 million speakers of the language in West Africa (25 million according to Sachnine 1997:9, 19 million in 1993 according to the Ethnologue). Give or take a million or two, but I see no easy way to get up to 40 million.

I can see a few problematic cases. First, close to Yoruba, take Hausa. Looking at the native speakers is it somewhat larger than Yoruba (Newman 2000:1 gives upwards 35 million; Jaggar 2001:1 gives 30 million or more). Now, many Hausa speakers are in fact historically ethnic Fulani who shifted to Hausa following the Fulani Jihad — so one might make a case for their being (at least historically) not 'as' ethnic Hausa as ethnic Hausa, if you know what I mean.

Oromo comes to mind as a good candidate. About 24 million native speakers according to the 1998 census. That's clearly in the same range as Yoruba, so it is going to be very difficult to find out which is the largest, Yoruba or Oromo. I suspect it might even be impossible to decide because there are so many different sources presenting different numbers; that's why I won't make a choice. I think that whoever wants to argue either way has to provide sources for both Oromo and Yoruba. Ah, and Somali might need to be added to the pile, 13-25 million (2004 WCD). — mark ✎ 07:32, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Thanks Mark. I am figuring out the Wikipedia tools, but only slowly. I hope I sign this correctly. Perhaps United Nations figures are the most reliable for Oromo and Yoruba population estimates. I believe the total ethnic Yoruba indigenous to Togo, Benin Republic and Nigeria are about 40 million - Nigeria has about 35 million Yoruba - but perhaps this weekend's census in Nigeria will provide more reliable figures. His Royal Highness 09:12, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

Are the results of this census known already? — mark ✎ 17:38, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

At the moment, the first sentence of the article reads (thanks to an edit of Ajileso): The Yoruba (native name Yorùbá) form a large ethno-linguistic group or ethnic nation in West Africa. I think that nicely avoids the pitfalls of wordings like 'single largest' etc., which are magnets for POV edits. What do others think? — mark ✎ 17:44, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Yoruba twins

Recently, an extensive section was added on Yoruba twins. Although the information looks bona fide to me, it is a big problem for our verifiability that no sources are provided (see WP:CITE). I have tagged the section with {{unreferenced}} and warned the editor who added this on his talk page. I hope we will be able to cite sources, otherwise I'm going to move it to the talk page "pending verification".

On a sidenote, the section is quite big, so if kept, most of it will probably need to be split off into a new article Yoruba twins. — mark ✎ 17:04, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

It has been moved in its entirety to Yoruba twins by RickRdgrs. — mark ✎ 07:10, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Cuba and Yoruba

Ethnologue gives NO speakers of Yoruba in either Cuba or Brazil. Moreover, despite the existence of several dozen common loanwords from Yoruba in Cuban Spanish and Brazilian Portuguese, prirmarily in matters related to santería, candomblé and other religious matters, I've never read any account of existing languages in Cuba or Brazil that mention Yoruba. Therefore, I'm removing these two countries from the "Regions with significant populations." If anyone has evidence that Yoruba has "significant populations" of speakers in either country, please restore the the name of the country AND give a reference to a reliable supporting source. Interlingua 22:46, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

A little late, but I agree with this point. — mark ✎ 14:02, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Yoruba Art

Obalufon II Mask, 11th-12th century., Copper. Third king of Ifè, successor of Oduduwa the creator of the world

http://benue.com/ife_mask_head.jpg http://benue.com/Ife_Testa.sized.jpg http://benue.com/Ife_particolare_di_Testa_di_un_Oni.sized.jpg http://benue.com/Ife_Particolare_maschera_dell_Obi_Obalufon.sized.jpg http://benue.com/1115196.jpg http://benue.com/yoruba0.jpg http://benue.com/Ife_Figura_femminile_seduta.sized.jpg http://benue.com/kko_g.gif http://benue.com/kks_g.gif http://benue.com/Ife_Particolare_di_testa_coronata_di_Oni.sized.jpg http://benue.com/Ife_parte_superiore_della_figura_di_un_Oni.sized.jpg

Tada Seated Figure, ca. late 13–14th century., Copper.

http://benue.com/Tada%20Seated%20Figure%20ca.%20late%2013%20to%2014th%20century.jpg http://benue.com/Tada%20Seated%20Figure%20ca.%20late%2013%20to%2014th%20century.jpg

Yoruba Royalty 12-14th century., Terracotta

http://benue.com/YorubaKingTerracotta.jpg http://benue.com/YorubaMask.jpg http://benue.com/Ife_Testa_coronata.jpg

Category "Muslim communities"

This article was placed in Category:Muslim communities by User:Tigeroo. I disagree with this categorization, because it implies that the Yoruba are a Muslim community (despite Tigeroo's insistence that it doesn't imply that). The Yoruba people do not form a monolithic unit which as a whole can be placed in the category of Muslim communities. Yes, everyone knows that a sizable portion of Yorubas adheres to a local flavour of Islam. However, the same holds for Christianity, and I would object similarly to placement in the category 'Christian communities'. Thing is, such categories do imply that the community as a whole adheres to belief system X, and that doesn't make sense by any stretch of the imagination. I'm not saying that the role played by Islam in some parts of Yorubaland is irrelevant. I'm saying that the category system is not the right way to adress the multifarious issue of cultural identity. Therefore, I have removed the category. — mark ✎ 07:24, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Mark, Wiki intro to the Category:Muslim communities:

"This category is for articles about communities of Muslims that are also defined by ethnic, linguistic or regional identities. See also Category:Islam by country."

What I see the Category:Muslim communities as being is to allowing readers to see where different Muslim communities can be found. Minority or the majority, denomination or demographic weightage is not relevant to this category but may form the basis for some other category. The Yoruba Muslims qualify because within Muslims they form a seperate community in this category by dint of a distinct ethnic, linguistic or regional identity. Especially in Africa where tribe is the greatest distinguishing ethnic charecteristic of all. Coming to this page they can then see what the demographics are. It is of particular interest to people looking into religious syncretism in Islam and the how geographical diversity and historical experiences have affected muslims globally. Until there is an article that specifically deals with Yoruba Muslims, which would I forsee would also be a sub-section or a fork from this very page at any rate or needs to be stubbed in the religion section, I think this article is the next best thing to allows navigators of this category to find information of which they may not even have been aware.

To reiterate and summarize:

1. the term community implies a small subsection vs. the category Islam by country.
2. Within a country there can be seperate communities of muslims, that are of a distinct ethnic, linguistic or regional identity. Example Category:Muslim communities of India or in Nigeria you have Muslim communities of both the Hausa-Fulani and Yoruba among others.
3. Putting the page in the category Muslim communities does not Categorize the Yoruba as Muslims. In Wikipedia, the purpose of categorys is to perform the function of navigation tools, not of classification, to help people find related information in this case other Muslim communities as defined above.
4. The article does address religion of the Yoruba even if disproportionately so is relevant.
5. Any misconceptions that may arise because of point 3 are addressed in the Article leaving no doubts.

--Tigeroo 08:33, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

I think you both make very good arguments. But on balance, I think I lean toward Mark's opinion. Wikipedia categories, whether Tigeroo likes it or not, do tend to serve as a form of classification. And if we are to place Category:Muslim communities on any ethnic group that includes Muslim members, the category will be so watered down as to be useless. I mean, should we really put this on French people or German people? Better to reserve it for majority-Muslim groups. -- Amcaja 15:50, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

In this case there is also appears to be a significant if not a majority population. I don't know the Muslim Yoruba, but would like to know about them, which is what brought me to the article in the first place. While people may not like the idea of these kind of Categories, they do exist because there is an interest in them. The infobox provides a great tool to summarily and clearly dismiss the notion of a majority, a curosry look at the article dimissed any such notion for me so I ended up learning about animistic Yoruban beliefs as well and that they are alive and kicking in the region! This is an article descriptive of the people and social groups and I feel therefore other communities should be addressed.--Tigeroo 06:54, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, they should be adressed, but to my mind, the category system isn't the right way to do so. Right now, I think the article is too light on Islam and Christianity among the Yorubas (it only notes the massive growth of christianity in nineteenth-century Yorubaland due to missionary activities), and on the mutual influence between these 'modern' religions and traditional Yoruba beliefs and practices. Quite a few interesting studies have been published on this, and if I find the time to dive into this subject matter, I will certainly try to expand the article. Adding a category does not adress the issue however, and more importantly, as Brian says, it has the effect of watering down the usefulness of the category itself.

Unfortunately, very few studies offer reliable statistics, but it seems unlikely to me that Muslims constitute a majority among the Yoruba. A sizable portion, certainly (especially in the north, bordering on Hausaland and affected by the Muslim Fulani Jihad), but in somewhat more recent history, Christianity has been much more influential in the area (through missionary practices) than Islam. — mark ✎ 08:00, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Its upto you I was only passing through and thought it was lacking something that would have helped me, a way to have found it earlier. I know nothing of them beyond this page and from the nigeria page and my interest in yoruba or this category too fleeting, but if you do go ahead and expand it at some point I would request you put the category where it may help someone else find them.--Tigeroo 14:09, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Notable Yoruba people

The end of the article seems to be turning into a long list of apparently notable Yoruba people. I have never been a fan of lists (I think the category system works fine for this type of thing), so I propose to cut down this list to a few very notable Yoruba people of the stature of, say, Samuel A. Crowther, Fagunwa, and Soyinka. The remaining footballers, thoracic surgeons, engineers, and activists can be removed, or at least moved to a separate article like List of notable Yoruba people. Work on the Yoruba article should focus on improving the historical, demographical and socio-cultural aspects of the article, not on listing as many Yorubas as possible. — mark ✎ 21:30, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Okay, I pulled it out of the article because it seems to be a magnet for people thinking "But I know that guy and he's a Yoruba too, so he must be a notable Yoruba". It can be found in the history still. I say: let's do away with it. I think it would be better to mention some of the most important people in the body of the article. So Fagunwa should be mentioned in a section on Yoruba literature, and Crowther in a section on the history or the language, et cetera. No lists, because lists degenerate into popularity contests which are magnets for unverified and unnotable additions. — mark ✎ 11:25, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Months in Yoruba etc.

Recently the following was added to the bottom of the article. I've pulled it out because Wikipedia is not a tourist phrasebook. For individual words etc. we have Wiktionary. — mark ✎ 19:45, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Days in Yoruba (Awon 195.166.237.42 16:30, 15 October 2006 (UTC)ojo ni yoruba) Sunday (Aiku) Monday (Aje) Tuesday (Isegun) Wednesday (Ojoru) Thursday (Ojobo) Friday (Eti) Saturday (Abameta)

Months in Yoruba (Awon osu ni Yoruba) January (Seere) February (Erele) March (Erena) April (Igbe) May (Obi) June (Okudu) July (Agemo) August (Ogun) September (Owere) October (Owawa) November (Beelu) Decenber (Ope)

Yoruba population

The 1991 census figure put Yoruba state of lagos at 5.6 million, Oyo state 3.5 million, Ondo state 3.9 million, Osun state at 2.2 million, Kwara state at 1.6 million. Kogi state at 2.1 million. Ogun state at 2.4 million.. Even when satellite picture have show that the fulani/hausa military reduce the population please see google earth links to see the size of the yoruba city of Ibadan said to be 600,000.. While kano said to be 5.6 million.. This show Oyo state would have had over 6 million people.. and also compare Ondo state... which on google you could locate Akure, ondo city, Ado ekiti, and compare it to kano.. If the 1991 census figure claim 24 millions. but satellite picture show may be more than that.. and the 36 million estimate is based upon the 1991 census figure.. then if Nigeria only , the yorubas are more than 40 million.. Please note that Edo state also have yorubas living in the north...

see talk, 1991 census put it 24million inNigeria only,15 years later, 2005 put 36 million in Nigeria only excluding other country... see nigeria 1991census figure, state see how we arrive at figures.. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nigeriamajor (talk • contribs)

We've been through this a million times before, both here and at Talk:Nigeria, e.g. this archived discussion. What you are doing here, is original research, and Wikipedia is not the venue to publish your original research. It wasn't last summer, it isn't now, and it will never be. The choice is as follows: or (1) You provide reliable sources so that the population estimate is verifiable, or (2) You don't change the estimate. — mark ✎ 12:22, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

"related groups" info removed from infobox

For dedicated editors of this page: The "Related Groups" info was removed from all {{Infobox Ethnic group}} infoboxes. Comments may be left on the Ethnic groups talk page. Ling.Nut 23:43, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

External links

Please, lets take a less short-sighted look at external links related to the discussions at hand , especially when they promote knowledge of the subject. There are very few websites devoted to discussion of Yoruba knowledge and the few should be nurtured. A link recently posted for the new forum yorubaland.org was deleted for reasons that are not good enough Websesame (talk) 19:34, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

They were removed per WP:EL. Wikipedia is not a link farm. IrishGuy ^talk 17:31, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Image copyright problem with Image:Lagbaja.jpg

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THOUGH ITS AGAINST THE SPIRIT OF YORUBA ONESS TO COMMENT ON THE WRITE UP ON MODAKEKE AND IFE ISSUES HOWEVER WHEN I STARTED READING THE STORY OF MODAKEKE PEOPLE IN ILE IFE IT WAS FASCINATING BUT I DISCOVER THAT THE WRITER BECAME BIAS IN THE MIDDLE OF THE WRITE UP ALLOWING SENTIMENT AND PRIMODIAL AND ETHNIC HATRED TO BECLOUD HIS JUDGEMENT ASKING IN THE WRITE UP ¨WHERE IS THE HOSPITALITY GIVEN TO THE MODAKEKES^

WHAT THE WRITER DID NOT ADD IN THIS LOPSIDED STORY IS THAT BEFORE THE MODAKEKES CAME TO SETTLE IN ILE IFE THEY HAVE VISISTED MANY YORUBA SPEAKING TOWNS AND VILLAGES THAT REFUSE TO ACCEPT THEM THE MODAKEKES DID NOT ORIGINATE FROM OYO THEY ARE OYO SPEAKING BUT ORIGINATED FROM ILORIN WHEN AFONJA BETRAYED HIS BROTHERS IN OYO AND ASK ALIMI A FULANI MAN TO WAGE WAR AGAINST OYO OYO WAS DEAFEATED AND AFONJA THE FOUNDER OF ILORIN WAS MUDERED BY FULANI JIHADIST ALIMI WHO LATER TOOK OVER THE GOVERNANACE OF ILORIN AND HIS DESCENDANTS ARE STILL THERE TILL TODAY MARGINALISING THE YORUBAS IT WAS THE REMINANT OF AFONJA WAR MONGERS THAT ARRIVED IN OYO ASKING TO BE ACCEPTED IN THIER MIST BUT THE OYO REINGING KING SENSING THAT THIS GROUP OF PEOPLE MIGHT BRING TROUBLE TO HIS KINGDOM REFUSED TO ACCEPT THEM THERE AND THEN THEY DECIDED TO COME TO YORUBA ANCESTRAL HOME IN ILE IFE ISNT IT CURIOUS WHY THE MODAKEKES COULD COME ALL THE WAY TO ILE IFE TO SETTLE? AFTER ALL THERE ARE CITIES LIKE OGBOMOSO, IBADAN ETC ALONG THE WAY BEFORE ILE IFEµ BUT ALL THE RULERS OF THIS TOWNS REFUSED THEM SETLEMENT UNTIL THEY GOT TO ILE IFE. MODAKEKES WITH THIER EXPANTIONIST AND AGENDA AND SPITIT OF BETRAYAL , REGROUPED IN ILE IFE AND DECIDED TO BITE THE FINGER THAT FEED THEM IT SPURIOUS ,AND TURNING LOGIC ON ITS HEAD TO SAY THAT IFES ARE ENVIOUS OF MODAKEKES ACHIVEMENTS, IF THAT IS THE CASE THE ACHIVEMENTS IN THOSE DAYS SUPPOSE TO HAVE METERMOPHORSED INTO A RAPID DEVELOPMENT IN THIER COMMUNITY TODAY A VISIT TO MODAKEKE COMMUNITY TODAY WILL EXPOSE THE FALACY OF THIS WRITER ITS QUITE INSULTING FOR THE WRITER TO PUT A LOPSIDED ARGUMENT LIKE THIS IN A WEBSITE AS RESPECTABLE AS THIS IF INDEED THE MODAKEKES HAS DEFEATED THE IFES 4 TIMES AND SEND THEM TO EXILE THEN ALL THE FARMLEND SUPPOSE TO BELONG TO THEM, THE ISSUE OF ISAKOLE WOULDNT HAVE COME UP  ? BECAUSE IN THOSE DAYS WINNERS TAKE ALL BUT ALL THE FARMLAND WHICH THE MODAKEKES ARE USING FOR THIER COCOA FARMING AND OTHER FARMINGS TILL TODAY BELONGS TO THE IRAYE PEOPLE THEY ARE ALL TENANTS ON THE LAND THE DESIRE OF MODAKEKE PEOPLE TO SEND THE IFES WHO ARE LARGER THAN THEM IN NUMERICAL NIMBERS ANYWAY, CAN NEVER BE ACHIVED I REST MY CASE OMO-OBA A ODUNMORAYO CAMBERWELL GREEN LONDON SE5 9BY''Italic text' —Preceding unsigned comment added by Adesina1959 (talk • contribs) 15:14, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

scarfice and how to do them

had a reading done would like to advance futher in the culture (Donaldbell72 (talk) 19:20, 17 April 2010 (UTC))

Religion fanatics stay away

The overall title of this piece is Yoruba People, if you believe you have your facts on Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Eckankar, or Hindu in Yoruba Land, etc., you can start a new topic. However, it is improper to discuss such subtitles under Yoruba People. I hope authors will be more responsible, put away sentiment and stay on the main topic while contributing to this title. Thank you —Preceding unsigned comment added by Daremu (talk • contribs) 13:06, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

Please disregard this. I am sure the author was not of sound mind. Thank you.

Infobox

Do we really need this many people in the infobox? Étienne Dolet (talk) 08:19, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

• I really do wonder myself. It makes the infobox look so untidy!--Jamie Tubers (talk) 22:12, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

Fixed duplicate alt parameters

I fixed the duplicate alt parameters, and caption misalignment in the image galleries by switching to <gallery>...</gallery>. let me know if there are any fundamental problems. Frietjes (talk) 22:46, 9 September 2015 (UTC)

History section

This should be a summary of the main article - it should never differ from it. I've posted the text below to Talk:History of the Yoruba people:

Dierk Lange thinks they came from the Near East.[1].

Others disagree, eg arguing that there is no homogenous group of Yoruba and that different groups came at different times from a variety of places.[2] Movements, borders, and identities in Africa."The different versions ot the migration stories of northern Yoruba peo- ple can be interpreted as an indication of distinct phases of migration from different areas and at different periods, a long history of cohabitation, and the bonds of domination, conquest, and exploitation during the nineteenth century."

Another perspective is offered in The transformation of Nigeria: essays in honor of Toyin Falola[3]:

"An in-depth account of the origin of the Yorubas is a complex task that is beyond the scope of this chapter, for such an undertaking must examine various sources of information, such as oral and written history, myths, folk tales, legends, customs, traditional practices, norms, religion, and art. The need for a multiple approach is based on the fact that early Yoruba history is not available in a chronological body of literature. However, historians have focused on two major ac- counts of the origin of the Yoruba people. The first account entails several versions of a creation story. The Yorubas believe that they are descendants of one common ancestor, Oduduwa, who supposedly descended from heaven with a chain, bearing some earth, palm kernels, and a cock. He landed in Ife where these items were used to establish the earth and its agricultural resources.

The second account is the migration paradigm. Saburi Biobaku posits that the Yoruba people migrated from the area around Egypt in North Africa around 600 A.D. Other prominent Yoruba historians like Ade Obayemi, J. A. Atanda, and I. A. Akinjogbin have suggested that the Yorubas migrated between 500 A.D. and 1,000 A.D.,1 from the Hausa-Fulani area of the Niger-Benue confluence, a region that is much closer to the current location of the Yoruba kingdoms. This theory is often supported by similarities in physical characteristics shared by both Yoruba and Fulani peoples, such as facial marks. Various accounts of Yoruba origins are still accepted by many people." Dougweller (talk) 12:06, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

Why does the material from Dierk Lange persist in the article—unchallenged and in the opening section? It's clearly inaccurate, outdated material that does not need to be included in the entry in any form. If it's a widely held misunderstanding, then, yes, it should be summarized and refuted. It should not be presented as one of multiple, equally plausible scholarly views ("some say this"; "others say this").

I don't know why the author has not acted on the previous suggestions for revision (which provide good material, but give too much credence to Lange's theory). If the author is unwilling to correct the error, I will undertake to do it. KC 20:43, 10 January 2016 (UTC)

Genetics for ethnic groups RfC

For editors interested, there's an RfC currently being held: Should sections on genetics be removed from pages on ethnic groups?. This has been set up to determine the appropriateness of sections such as the "genetics" section in this article. I'd encourage any contributors to voice their opinions there. --Katangais (talk) 20:04, 30 April 2016 (UTC)

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"Awon Omo Yoruba" is inappropriate?

@Bappah: can you please explain why "Awon Omo Yoruba" is less appropriate. Basically, in everyday conversations, movies, music, social media, people refer to a yoruba person as "Omo Yoruba" (the singular version), not "Iran Yoruba". Based on WP:COMMONNAME, "Omo Yoruba" is easily the common native title for a yoruba person. How come it is being written as "less appropriate"? Any source to back that up?--Jamie Tubers (talk) 22:24, 3 November 2016 (UTC)

@Jamie Tubers:

Not Inappropriate, but rather Less appropriate term for Yoruba people , in comparison to/or with "Iran people" Commoner / colloquial speech can be quite different in many ways from more appropriate terminologies.

If a comparison were to be done. Awon is the pluralizing article, Omo (Child or children of), Yoruba (The people) - Literally "The children of Yoruba" which was the exact direct transliteration earlier defined. Iran Yoruba - (Yoruba people/race/lineage). Direct translation. Awon omo Yoruba thus comes off as a compound term trying as best as possible to directly match the idea behind the phrase 'Yoruba people". Yorubas are simply Yoruba, or Awon Yoruba (The Yorubas)

In this case, the earlier term can't be said to be Inappropriate or Wrong, but rather less appropriate than the latter. Iran Yoruba (Yoruba people) or Awon Yoruba (The Yorubas)

On a side note, the Yoruba are already a People, so I don't find it necessary adding "People" to the term unless it is being done in a context to differentiate it from the language. In this case, it isn't. So Yoruba or Yorubas would be best fit. Akin to Americans (rather than American People) or Canadians rather than (Canadian people). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bappah (talk • contribs)

• You still haven't answered the question. When you say something is "less appriopriate", it means that its usage for the subject being discussed can be considered wrong or offensive in certain scenarios. The grammatical correctness is a different discussion all together, and most times, it is infact irrelevant to Wikipedia's usage of a term. How is using "Awon Omo Yoruba", for a Yoruba person, less appropriate? Does a yoruba person get referred to mostly as "Omo Yoruba" or not?--Jamie Tubers (talk) 13:02, 4 November 2016 (UTC)

British or American English

I assume Nigeria and other English-speaking Yoruba areas would use British spellings. Is that correct? If so, we should put a hatnote saying the British spellings are preferred, so that we don't get an endless stream of edits bickering over spelling issues. Aristophanes68 (talk) 19:08, 27 May 2017 (UTC)

• Actually, there is a Nigerian variation, which tends to have some spellings conforming with British spellings, and some others, with American spellings. From what I have seen since I started following the article, that's the major variation being used by contributors, so I'll add a hatnote to reflect that.--Jamie Tubers (talk) 21:23, 27 May 2017 (UTC)

• Thanks! Aristophanes68 (talk) 21:50, 27 May 2017 (UTC)

Added discussion disappeared

Hello there Just added discussion on here but it disappeared are you reviewing or should I add another on? Ppdallo (talk) 17:14, 10 November 2018 (UTC)

Stop the vandalism, please.

Hello Aabiolat please stop vandalising this page by adjusting to false population figures and citing unverifiable references. It is quite intriguing as to why you choose to erase verifiable references and replace it with unverifiable ones. Stop the VANDALISM. pls.Ppdallo (talk) 15:11, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

Art: Ori Inu and Ori Ode

I really like all the information used in the art section. I was just curious if the concept of Ori Inu and Ori Ode was something worth mentioning. The idea of the inner head and the outer head was something we learned about the head art in my class, but I didn't see any mention of this throughout the art section. Nicole Lenz (talk) 01:04, 5 October 2019 (UTC)

Edit protected

Replace

• <ref>{{cite journal|publisher=African Research Review|author=Adeshina Yusuf Raji|author2=P.F. Adebayo|url=http://afrrevjo.net/journals/multidiscipline/Vol_3_no_2_art_11_Adesina%20&%20Adebayo.pdf|volume=3|number=2|year=2009|archivedate=4 March 2016|archiveurl=https://web.archive.org/web/20160304080637/http://afrrevjo.net/journals/multidiscipline/Vol_3_no_2_art_11_Adesina%20%26%20Adebayo.pdf|website=African Journals Online|title=Yoruba Traders in Cote D'Ivoire: A Study of the Role Migrant Settlers in the Process of Economic Relations in West Africa|pages=134–147|journal=|access-date=19 November 2019|url-status=dead}}</ref>

with

• {{cn}}

Because African Research Review is a predatory journal and should not be cited on Wikipedia. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 20:49, 21 November 2019 (UTC)

 Done There is another one in the Traditional art and architecture section — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 19:00, 23 November 2019 (UTC)

Etymology and Early Usage of the word Yoruba as an ethnic description

As an ethnic description, the word "Yoruba" or initially as "Yarabawa" was originally in reference to the Oyo Empire whose capital city lay close to the banks of the Niger river to the south of Nupe and east of Borgu, and was said to be a Hausa exonym for the Oyo people as noted by Hugh Clapperton and Richard Lander. It would appear that the term had taken root and become accepted among the Oyo people themselves. The subsequent extension of the term to all speakers of dialects related to the language of the Oyo (which is a dialect within North-Western Yoruba) dates to the second half of the 19th century, and was due to the socio-linguistic influence of Bishop Samuel Ajayi Crowther, the first Anglican bishop in Nigeria. Crowther who was himself an Oyo Yoruba compiled the first Yoruba dictionary as well as introducing a standard for Yoruba orthography, and it was his adoption and proliferation of the term that eventually cemented the use of the term as an umbrella reference into the modern era, at the expense of all the other popular term that were used in that era for the collectivity of Yoruba people in early precolonial and colonial literature, among which were; Anago/Nago, Olukumi / Luk(c)umi and Aku/Oku. The alternative names Akú and Okú, are exonyms derived from the first words of Yoruba personal greetings (such as; A(o) kú òwúrọ? "good morning", A(o) kú alẹ? "good evening") has survived in certain parts of their diaspora as a self-descriptive, especially in Sierra Leone and The Gambia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Oramfe (talk • contribs) 21:49, 19 November 2019 (UTC)

As an ethnic description, the word "Yoruba" (or more correctly, "Ya raba") was originally in reference to the Oyo Empire and is the usual Hausa name for Oyo people as noted by Hugh Clapperton and Richard Lander. It was therefore popularized by Hausa usage and ethnography written in Ajami during the 19th century by Sultan Muhammad Bello. The extension of the term to all speakers of dialects related to the language of the Oyo (in modern terminology North-West Yoruba) dates to the second half of the 19th century. It is due to the influence of Bishop Samuel Ajayi Crowther, the first Anglican bishop in Nigeria. Crowther was himself an Oyo Yoruba and compiled the first Yoruba dictionary as well as introducing a standard for Yoruba orthography. The alternative name Akú, apparently an exonym derived from the first words of Yoruba greetings (such as Ẹ kú àárọ? "good morning", Ẹ kú alẹ? "good evening") has survived in certain parts of their diaspora as a self-descriptive, especially in Sierra Leone.

Any body reading these two versions would not fail to realize that the older version is more precise and devoid of unnecessary words WHEREAS the new version is egotistic, unnecessarily lengthy, flowery and deliberate falsification of history by removing Muhammadu Bello's contribution while maintaining that of Clapperton and Ajayi Crowther. Also it shoud be noted that the area known today as Yoruba land was never united in etnicity or a particular language but rather various ethnic groupings that spoke and up till today speak different but related langauges. eg people of Kabba, Ijebu, Egba, ekiti,etc, etc. even according to cited reference no.3 the opposition to the use of the name Yoruba, which was already popularized by Hausa usage among all Oyo people and its neighbors, (during a discussion by freed returnee slaves-Christian missionaries that landed in Sierra Leone and had never been to Yoruba land) was in favor of Aku, which as i have told Oramfe, was also of Hausa origin. Please DISCUSS Ppdallo (talk) 18:32, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

Please also note what Peter Cohen wrote in his article, Orisha Journeys as quoted: “The concept of a single “Yorùbá” people and its baptism with the Hausa term for the inhabitants of Òyó was largely the work of liberated captives and their children returning from Sierra Leone, particularly as Protestant missionaries. The terms by which the descendants of Yorùbá-speakers are known today in the New World – “Nagô” in Brazil, “Nago” in Haiti and Jamaica, “Lucumí” in Cuba, “Akú” in Sierra Leone – emerged as meaningful categories in the context of enslavement and exile.”

This clarifies the fact that Samuel Ajayi Crowther and his colleagues did not know the area known today as Yorubaland enough to choose a name for the Yoruba except what their Hausa neighbors have already coined and popularized both inside Oyo itself and among its neighbors, which he learnt through Hugh Clapperton's book and who in turn officially learnt it from Muhammadu Bello. Therefore it would be a gross distortion of Yoruba history if Muhammadu Bello's name and contribution is expunged from the origin of their name, while retaining the contribution of even less important contributor like ajayi Crowther.Ppdallo (talk) 18:21, 26 November 2019 (UTC)

It should also be noted that the word "exonym" as defined by wikipedia as "An exonym or xenonym is an external name for a geographical place, a group of people, an individual person, or a language or dialect. It is a common name used only outside the place, group, or linguistic community in question." therefore its usage by Oramfe in his edit is misplaced as even he himself had noted that the name was accepted by the Oyo people themselves — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ppdallo (talk • contribs) 07:46, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

References

Dialect vs Language (as it relates to Yoruba)

The various Yoruba speech forms (Kabba/Owe, Ijebu, Ijesha, Ekiti, Ibolo, Oyo, Egba E.tc) are not different languages or groups of 'related languages' but dialect of the same language. That is not up for discussion. Aku is not of Hausa origin. There are two forms of that term Aku and Oku, and none of them have Hausa origin whatsoever. You don't speak Yoruba do you? I on the other hand speak Yoruba, Fulfulde and not so perfect Hausa. Aku is the beginning of greetings in Yoruba.. That a word has a meaning in one language which you speak does not mean it comes from that language or mean the same thing in the other language as in the one you know of. I could as well say Aku is of Fulani origin because we greet each other 'Aku' and the responder says 'Usse'. That even makes more sense. But it is not. Honestly a lot of the things you say would not make as much sense to yourself if you back-projected it to your own ethnic group and then re-examine it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Oramfe (talk • contribs) 13:25, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

In Kabba alone there are many coexisting and mutually unintelligible languages within less than a mile of each other. So what are you talking about? A Badagary man right here with me is telling me not mind you, that I should tell you he is not Yoruba.Ppdallo (talk) 08:06, 28 November 2019 (UTC)

On the terminology Yoruba

Etymology

Ordinarily, this discussion shouldn't even be as drawn out as you are making it, but of course let us discuss all the intricacies and nitty-gritties of the subject at hand while forgoing of all assumptions and made up fables. Yes, the concept of "Yoruba people" as a monolithic social/ethnic entity was an experience that first took hold in the diaspora of the Atlantic world and was largely due to the experience of Yoruba slaves who saw their far more mutual commonalities with one another as against the backdrop of being co-existent with other African people with whom they shared far less in common than their fellow Yorubas. You only seem to be supporting everything I said before as Crowther is himself a Yoruba slave returnee by way of Sierra Leone and was a missionary. Of course they were also aware that they were people of the same stock even back in their own ethnic homeland back in Nigeria and Benin but the in-fighting and constant inter clan warfare of the time did not allow them to coalesce successfully. This is not different from the experience of most other African ethnic group of the period, including the Hausa group which you hail from who were either politically Gobirawa, Kanawa, Adarawa, Katsinawa, E.t.c before the Jihad.

Secondly; Crowther and SOME of his other colleagues clearly knew what Yoruba was and was very conversant with the area known today as "Yorubaland" since he (as well as some others) were already adults who were cognitively and developmentally aware before they were captured from their various village in the interior of Oyo (in the case of Ajayi) as well as other places such as Ijesha, Awori (Otta), Ilorin, Ogbomosho, Badagry and so forth. Crowther himself knew what Yoruba was, since it was already in use amongst the Oyos themselves before he became a victim of the transatlantic slave trade. He did not learn from Hugh clapperton's book or that of any other. The problem here is that you are assuming a lot of things that you are not very well informed about. Some of the indentured servants (not slaves) who voluntarily went into the diaspora in the mid 1800s took the name 'Yoruba' with them, although at this point they were in the minority since slavery was already officially abolished in a lot of places, as such the name did not take hold unlike the others like Lukumi and Nago.

Thirdly, Muhammad Bello himself can not be credited with the creation of the term 'Yoruba' , 'Yaraba', "Yariba', Yarabawa" or the term as it appears in any of its previous or current forms. Did he use it any of his ajami writings to describe the Oyos? Yes he did. Were Yorubas aware of his writings in Ajami? Probably or not. But did he create the term? Most definitely not. And that is why the term is rightfully referenced back to the Hausas and the Hausa Language and not Bello. Even this is still contestable and I am doing some serious research work at right now into how that term came about for the Oyos because the truth is is that is does not have any specific meaning in Hausa language, However since the Yorubas themselves call the Borgu people Baruba, it would only make more parallel sense that the Oyos who were their neighbors were the Yoruba. But since I have no online sources to back up this particular claim as of yet, I would leave that out of the plane of discourse (for now).

Yes an exonym is a name that has its source in an external out-group source. Either for a place, a people or a culture as against the opposite terminology 'Endonym' which is a name whose origin is within the group in question. Baruba/Bariba is a Yoruba exonym for Baatonum/Borgu people, it has stuck into the modern era.. Tapa is a Yoruba exonym for Nupe people. Gambari is a Yoruba exonym for Hausas. Ado is a Yoruba exonym for Binis.... And until I a conclude my research work on whether the term 'Yoruba' actually does have its roots from within the Hausas there is no other word to describe it for now other than an 'Exonym', it is not misplaced usage. User:Oramfe (talk) , 27 November 2019 (UTC)

Nice try, User:Oramfe!

1. Like i told you before, Gobir, Katsina, Adar etc were all names of towns and the affixed "wa" connotes that they come from those towns and they all identify as Hausa throughout their history. unlike Ijebu, Badagary, Egba, Igbomina, Ekiti, Okun etc, which are all individual tribes with different languages coming under the artificial umbrella called "Yoruba"

2. Ajayi crowther was not an adult but only twelve years old and illiterate when he was captured into slavery. he was educated by European missionaries who got their knowledge of African peoples through their explorers such as Hugh Clapperton. So even as the name "Yoruba" was in use among the Oyo themselves, he couldn't have known much about their neighbors to the south much less see the need to extend the name Yoruba over them.

3. Bello did not create the name "Yaraba" but Hausa traders and explorers (the latter we call them Falake as plural or falke as singular). His role here is in using the name in his Ajami writings (copies of which, by the way, were already in the hands of the British even before they decided to send explorers into Africa) and also when he officially pronounced it to Clapperton when he asked him. Please let sleeping dogs lay. Most names of groups of people or nationalities do not have meaning. "Hausa" has no meaning in the Hausa language, so is "English" in the English language, or Igbo in "Igbo" language etc. But incidentally, "Ya raba" "Yaraba" or the corrupted version "Yoruba" has a serious meaning in the Hausa language. It connotes the "divisive" nature of the Oyo people. literally, "ya raba" means "He divides".

4. In the case of similarity between Baruba and Yoruba, i honestly wish you good luck in your efforts to research this issue but be informed that the name "Baruba" has its roots in the name of their land which is Borgu/Borugu and is actually of Hausa coinage and its similitude is just like that of the people of Borno/Boruno whom the Hausa call "Bareba-ri.

5. On referring to term "Yoruba" as an "Exonym" which i call a misplacement in your edit, i would like to call your attention to the fact that the British gave us the name "Nigeria" which we have accepted and is in use among us today so its not an exonym but a name given to us by our colonial masters. Ppdallo (talk) 08:01, 28 November 2019 (UTC)

Well, my final words to you in this discourse, User:Oramfe are the following:

1. The name Ya raba/yaraba/Yoruba is originally Hausa and was locally popularized by Hausa usage.

2. Muhammadu Bello had already propagated the name Yaraba/Yoruba throughout much of literate Africa, Asia and Europe through his usage of it in his Ajami writings decades before Ajayi crowther was even born. Therefore Muhammadu Bello deserve as much credit as Ajayi Crowther, if not more.

3. The area today known as Yrubaland comprises many tribes that are in many ways distinct from each other throughout their history, that have found commonality under the umbrella of "Yoruba".

4. The word 'exonym" as used by you in your edit is a misnomer. Please if you still do not understand this just look up the meaning and application of the word "exonym".

5. Your edit is flowery, egotistic, unnecessarily lengthy and calculated to suppress historical facts.Ppdallo (talk) 08:07, 2 December 2019 (UTC)

Terrible infobox

The countries that are part of ECOWAS, Volta-Niger, and Yorubaland are already on the list of regions, so it makes no sense to include those entities on the list. In addition, Volta-Niger isn't a geographic region but a linguistic family. Spanish and Portuguese aren't spoken by the native Yoruba people, so they should be removed from the list of languages (and perhaps also English and French). The Yoruba people who were transported to the Americas have been creolized with other cultures, races, and ethnic groups - so it is questionable to suggest that their Spanish and Portuguese-speaking descendants are the same ethnicity as the Yoruba of West Africa. Jaqoc (talk) 00:05, 20 November 2020 (UTC)

Islam in Yoruba land

Hello everyone. Having done a lot of research on West African History from 1000 AD to present day i have discovered that the facts on how Islam was introduced to Yoruba land is grossly distorted and would like to help put the records straight so Wikipedia can be a reliable source of accurate information.Ppdallo (talk) 07:55, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

Degree of Presence of The Yoruba and 'Yoruba derived' groups in Nigeria, Benin & Togo at Sub-national levels

Hello Oramfe, lets discuss.Ppdallo (talk) 05:56, 4 September 2021 (UTC)

Ppdallo And what exactly is your issue with the map and the attached referene again? Oramfe (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 06:47, 4 September 2021 (UTC)

Oramfe Before we begin this discussion i would like to have a clear understanding of what this map means and its area of coverage, as i can see it is as far as Norhern Benin and southern Burkina Fasso and Niger Republic. Are "Yoruba" indigenous to those areas on the map aside from where you marked as predominant? If so at what period in "Yoruba" history did they migrate to those places. If it is by conquest, when did the "Yoruba" conquered those areas? Ppdallo (talk) 21:13, 4 September 2021 (UTC)

Yorubas of Northern Benin

• Firstly, The map in no way extends into Burkina Faso... Check Google earth, Apple maps, Open street maps or even Wikimapia (Basically any Atlas of the world) for cross referencing of West Africa's geographical divisions.
• Secondly, The map states clearly that it is a depiction of the INDIGENOUS presence of Yoruba and Yoruba derived groups in Nigeria, Benin and Togo.

For more background info on the subject matter, read up on the Yoruba people of Benin's Alibori region called the Mokole clan or Feeri, who number over 170,000 out of a total provincial populace of around 868,000 and you will understand how the shading in/coloring scheme applies there (the northernmost portion of the map).

For further reference on the geographical location of the Monkole domiciled in and around Kandi town check the links;

-https://www.peoplegroups.org/explore/GroupDetails.aspx?peid=12342

Check as well under the demographics section of Wikipedia's section on Benin's Alibori Department;

-https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alibori_Department

-https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mokole_language_(Benin)

And if you do understand French (or use google translate) you can also check this out on the website of the Beninese government

-https://www.gouv.bj/actualite/956/destination-benin---kandi--carrefour-incontournable-dans-alibori/

And finally these videos:

-https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1AiZNXH1ME

-https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJjYa8KW-_M&t=310s

As you can see the Mokole people are Yorubas who have elements of Bariba infusions in the culture.

• Thirdly, Several Yoruba villages are also situated in the Benin departments of Borgu and Donga (the two other coloured departments in northern Benin with the exception of Atakora) .... such as Bassila, Tchaourou, Papane, Aledjo, Partago, Manigri, Kikele, Onklou E.tc.

All the Beninese, Nigerian and Togolese departments are properly colored in; if only you would take the time to do some little ethnographic research before removing things outrightly.

Correspond for any further questions.

(talk) 23:54, 4 September 2021 (UTC)

Further discussion about the map

Oramfe please lets keep to our original discussion about the map. I will attend to your new section of "Yorubas of Northern Benin" soon enough. Actually it is even more interesting. You actually did not answer my questions. Please read carefully again and see if you can answer any of the questions. If you cannot answer any of it then i would like to draw your attention to the fact that the references you cited do not support your map. If you look at the Joshua project map it says "People cluster" which is purely from their view point of Evangelisation and not based on any ethnolinguistic studies. It is also highly ambiguous going by the orange and green dots spread as far as Senegal. This map extends beyond Niger and Kebbi states. About a quarter of the western borderline of Kebbi state is the Northern most reaches of Benin Republic.

My conclusion:

1. your map is not supported by any of your cited references.
2. Physically it extends beyond the northernmost reaches of Benin Republic.
3. Your map is a fantasy and a DUBIOUS ASSUMPTION.
4. This map is also very dangerous because it signifies "Yoruba" intentions for possible future territorial expansion since these areas on the map are clearly not "Yoruba" land. Ppdallo (talk) 06:48, 5 September 2021 (UTC)

Again... My reply to you.

• The map is about SUB-NATIONAL Divisions.. In other words. States, Provinces, Departments, Cantons Etc. Nigeria has 36 states... Benin has 12 departments.
• In Nigeria.. Yorubas predominate in 6 Southwestern states, and 7 with additional minorities (Kwara) Are a joint majority in Kogi (20%).. the other 80% being Ebira, Igala, Kakanda (Nupe), Bassa-Komo, Ogori, Bassa-Nge and idoma.
• In Benin ;Yorubas predominate in 2 of their 12 departments and are found as indigenous minorities to varying degrees in a further 7. Meaning they can be found as founder communities in 9 of Benin's 12 departments. Of those 7, three are in Northern Benin (Donga, Borgu and Alibori)
• Now.... the fact that Alibori shares a border with Kebbi state NG near Gaya or with Niger through the same entrepot as well as at Malanville is not the point. I already told you there are Indigenous Yoruba communities with ancient ties to Oyo therein the department.... And for centuries.

To be honest, your argument is making no sense. As a matter of fact, your original premise for removing that map has changed... You sound more like someone who does not WANT TO accept the facts than someone who genuinely wants to know for the sake of veracity

• Now...Going to the Joshua project map... If you see Yorubas in far flung locales like Senegal, Ivory Coast or Gambia, it just depicts the register of Diaspora Yoruba communities living there and nothing else. Same way Hausas communities are in Ivory Coast, Congo and Gabon... Honestly, it isn't even that complicated. It also shows Yorubas in USA, UK, and Italy. I don't understand your point... The key word here is INDIGENOUS.
• To visualize better the actual spread of Yorubas (And the other ethnolinguistic groups) in Benin, You should check this out:

- http://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51427108740_e3c235e912_b.jpg

• That particular breakdown of the indigenous spread of Yoruboid people is not particular to Joshua project... Intact, it wasn't created by JP or peoplegroups.org.. it was done by Ethnologue and they adapted it.
• In Benin (Which you seem to know very little about) from your remarks. The Yoruba represent the third largest ethnic population in the commune of Kandi and environs, the capital & largest agglomeration in Alibori. According to the national census, they represent 17.2% of the population just after the Fulas and the Baribas. Are you suggesting that an ethnic group of this proportion should not be depicted on the map simply because "they are too far north" for your liking?

- https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51426849419_9a14361db6_b.jpg

• If a map showing the locales where Yorubas can be indigenously found graded along a color scheme in Nigeria, Benin and Togo is considered "Dangerous" by you, then I indeed wonder how you think. Facts don't pander to emotions....
• And lastly, I am reiterating to You that the map is about THE INDIGENOUS PRESENCE OF YORUBAS in NG BN and TG at the level of Subnational divisions. It isn't a map of Yorubaland. That is a different although related subject matter.
• Please, I do not want to engage in a back and forth just for the sake of it. ... continue placing Yoruba in quotes that is your prerogative.

Oramfe (talk)12:12, 5 September 2021 (UTC)

Oramfe Please do not waste too much breath on this issue. Your second map does not even indicate Yoruba in Northern Benin apart from the fact that it is also unverifiable. Trying to claim Yoruba presence in Northern Benin just because Mokole(who have a distinct name and identity) are clustered with Yoruba for Evangelisation purposes by Joshua Project will not work here. It is just like claiming Yoruba presence inside Nupeland or Borgu just because they are related to Yoruba. THESE claims should be in the info box and you have made ample use of that. The fact still remains that the map is unverifiable and overshoots both Yoruba and Benin Republic territories and therefore should be expunged from Yoruba page. I will take up the next topic you brought up and will then see what agreement we can come to on this issue, but quite honestly you are taking this issue of "Yoruboid" presence across countries too far. Remember, there was never a tribe called Yoruba except the Oyos before the latter half of the 19th centuary. How then do you go about attaching "Yoruba" to other distinct ethnic groups in other distant places based on unverifiable sources? Even those Mokole in your video look and dress Hausa. Their musical instruments is Hausa as well and not Yoruba. Even the name of one of them is Hausa.Ppdallo (talk) 14:42, 5 September 2021 (UTC)

Ppdallo At this point, I honestly do not think you are following up with the things I am asking you to do in order to understand what you are seeing.

I will try and address the issues you have raised one after the other.

- Firstly, if you indeed watched the video and understand French, you would have heard them say their origin traces back to Oyo in Nigeria

- Secondly, the map is not "overshooting" Beninese territory by any means.

- Thirdly: Mokoles are not "Yorubas for evangelization" purposes. They are Yorubas by virtue of language and history... as told by themselves and as recognized by reknowned body of ethnographic literature as well as field studies on the subject matter.

http://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51426150277_718c1f01ca_b.jpg

- Fourthly: Unless you think you know more on the issue than the government of Benin, your revisionisms won't fly.

https://international.ipums.org/international-action/variables/LANGBJ#codes_section

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51426923721_351f10e077_h.jpg

- Fifthly: Yorubas don't have indigenous settlements nor presence in Nupe land ... Why would it be "claimed"?. As for Baribas, there is a Yoruba speaking exclave in the commune of Kandi in the department of Alibori who constitute over 17% of the population there and have their traditional lands as indigenes. If it was about coloring all places where Yorubas have a siginificant presence, then the FCT Abuja Territory would have been colored in.

- Sixthly: saying the Mokoles in the video 'look' and 'dress' Hausa is your subjective opinion. You can't understand their language, have no idea who they are nor what their history is. Hausas are not even found as an indigenous community in Benin so how would their apparels looking similar to a wider 'sudanian' west African mode of dressing negate or take away from who they are? There were never many things before the 19th century and that is exactly why history is not static. Even if we were to both assume you are right (which you are actually not), are you the one to "reclassify" them as whatever you wish?

- Overall, you still haven't proven the map is dubious other than the fact that you can't accept it for what it is, and for whatever reasons best known to you.

Oramfe (talk) 17:20, 5 September 2021 (UTC)

Oramfe That map is unverifiable and has the potential to incite territorial expansionism and future wars. The two references you cited do not support your claim. Yoruba derived groups do not mean they speak Yoruba or practice Yoruba culture or even bear Yoruba names. The Gwandara of Nasarawa state are Hausa derived group but they are not Hausa; No any potential Hausa expansionist would start drawing contiguous map from Hausa proper right into Gwandara land just to indicate "Hausa presence". See you in the next section Ppdallo (talk) 18:28, 5 September 2021 (UTC)

Ppdallo - What the Hausas chose to do is none of my concern really especially if you provide references and notations consistent with wiki standards. If you want to show a map depicting the indigenous presence of the Hausa-Gwandara group in Nigerian states and in Niger, that is up to you. Good luck! No one will come there to engage in a fruitless back and forth with you since we all know Gwandaras are Hausas (more or less) and even more so since their history, origin and migration traces directly back to one of the original Hausa city states... They might have cultural differences such as masquerades and other things and even differences in overall religious composition (being more christian) compared to the Hausas but their history and origin remains sacrosanct as Hausa emigres. But if of course you include them as a part of Hausaland of course that could be problematic....

If you include Kaduna as one of the states where the Hausas are one of the indigenous majorities, is that in any way implying that they are the only ethnic groups there?

Your problem is that you are not viewing the map for what it is but rather a preconceived notion of what you think it is supposed to mean. Not my (or anyone else's) problem.

-All my references very well support my claim and in-fact factual I can always provide even more if need be.

• Secondly, opinions are not the reason Wikipedia exists but facts. Reservations such as "incite territorial expansionism and future wars" is your idea and yours alone. I have never heard of a wikipedia article inciting a war anywhere. The neighbours of the Yorubas in Northern Benin have no problem with their presence. Maybe we can tell the Fulanis in Yobe state that they wouldn't be included in a demographic exercise of states where Fulanis can be found because their original homeland is in Senegal thousands of Kms away? Or can we deny the Hausa presence in Tilliabery region of niger because that particular region is dominated by the Zarma-Songhai-Dendi Ethnic group? Ridiculous isn't it? Those are the kind of arguments you are making here.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Oramfe (talk • contribs) 09:54, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

Oramfe Here we go! I have finally come to respect your enthusiasm for everything Yoruba (pardon my poor English) but please don't take it too far. Like i said earlier, "Yoruba derived groups" do not mean they speak Yoruba, bear Yoruba names or even practice Yoruba culture. This is attested to by one of the very videos (Histoire Des Mokolé) you cited to back up your claim. Just listen to the section of that video starting from 2:49 (2 minutes and 49 seconds)and it will be clear to you that the Mokole language is not Yoruba and does not even sound "Yoruba" (Haha, sorry i put Yoruba in quote!)These people are Yoruba derived group and you should therefore check the Yoruboid article on Wikipedia for proper understanding of what it means. Igala is Yoruboid but is distinct from Yoruba in language, culture and history just as Gwandara is "Hausoid" but distinct in language, history and culture. PLEASE THERE ARE NO YORUBA IN NORTHERN BENIN. Just check the Yoruboid article for a somewhat milder map of Yoruba presence in Benin and Nigeria as classified by Glottolog from Ethnologue. Your contiguous map of "indigenous Yoruba presence in Nigeria, Benin & Togo" reeks of wanton expansionism and can sow seeds of conflicts in future generations.Please take it down. WEST AFRICA SUFFERS FROM ENOUGH CONFLICTS, ALREADY.Ppdallo (talk) 10:10, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

Ppdallo Nice try.

Do you know the difference between Igala-Yoruba relationship and the Mokole-Yoruba etc group? Let me break down a few things for you

• First - Mokoles migrated straight out of Yorubaland, Oyo to be precise. The migration history of Igala and its connection to Yorubaland remains vague or even outrightly unknown.
• Second - Igala is an independent branch of the Yoruboid family of languages, Mokole on the other hand is a dialect of Ede. (Ede Mokole). All Ede speech forms are just dialects of one another. This includes Mokole, Oyo, Ijesha, Ijebu, Ekiti and what have you.
• Thirdly the igalas do not and have never accepted to be of Yoruba stock, the Mokoles on the other hand gladly acknowledge their Oyo ancestral ties. They even attend meetings and congresses of all Yoruba people in Benin to meet common goals and resolutions.
• Fourthly -Why do I have to fast forward the video to go watch a part which you think confirms your own perceptions? The video even states clearly from start by the narrator that the Mokoles are of Yoruba provenance, and later confirmed by a village chieftain. From 1:40 you even hear clearly "Royoume d'Oyo)
• Anyways, I watched the video from 2:49 and how does that invalidate anything? He is speaking a Yoruba dialect... lol! He even confirmed their emigration from Nigeria a long time ago.
• Lastly, the Mokoles are at peace with their neighbours. Don't think you can ferment, brew or stir trouble where there is none because 'Oramfe' made a map Yoruba group and where they can be found on Wikipedia. On the map key, The Alibori department clearly labels the Yorubas there as a "Smaller but Visible Minority"

− Ciao! Oramfe (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 10:51, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

Oramfe That language is not Yoruba. They don't bear Yoruba names. Their music is not Yoruba nor even their cloth. I do not speak Yoruba but three of my Yoruba friends confirmed to me that language is not Yoruba. It would do well if you take that map down. It is expansionism. Ppdallo (talk) 11:16, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

Ppdallo lol.. weren't you the same guy who was told by your phantom Yoruba friends some months ago that certain Yoruba peopled clans were not Yoruba? I haven't forgotten that episode with you. And coming from a guy who claims that Yoruba is not an ethnic group or language, how would you know what a Yoruba dialect is supposed to sound like?

Mokoles of ALIBORI are Yoruba. They haven't rejected nor denied that identity but someone is here on wikipedia denying on their behalf. And YES they have borrowed culturally from Baribas but then which culture of the world hasn't? Your Hausa ethnic group has borrowed extensively from all its neighbours... That hasn't stopped them from being what they are. Your anti Yoruba biases will effect no maligning changes here on wiki henceforth .... at least not on Yoruba Wikipedia (Especially if based on warped opinions, biases or a general lack of in-depth understanding). I am here for the long haul ... why don't you outright claim them as Hausas so we can both be sure where you are headed? Oramfe (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 11:42, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

Oramfe Haha, take it easy mi friend. Hausa have not borrowed any culture from its neighbors and I quote "The Hausa cultural practices stand unique in Nigeria and have withstood the test of time due to strong traditions, cultural pride as well as an efficient precolonial native system of government. Consequently, and in spite of strong competition from western European culture as adopted by their southern Nigerian counterparts, have maintained a rich and peculiar mode of dressing, food, language, marriage system, education system, traditional architecture, sports, music and other forms of traditional entertainment."

-Yes Badagry is not Yoruba and you know it. Mokole is not Yoruba even from their intonation (at least i know Yoruba intonation very well as a Nigerian)and yes i see two of them bearing Hausa names and none of them bearing Yoruba names. they play Hausa musical instruments and dress Hausa. So i can safely call them Hausoid :)

_ Your "Yoruba presence map" is not supported by the references you provided.It is expansionist and it portends danger for future generations of West Africans. For the sake of consistency across Wikipedia articles and all the efforts we have put in this discussion and also the mutual respect that all editors are supposed to have for each other, please substitute it with that on the Yoruboid article. It is more neutral.Ppdallo (talk) 12:52, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

Oramfe I repeat, there is no ethnicity, culture or language on this planet that has not borrowed or infused elements from the outside into itself. But hey! if that makes you feel better at night that Hausa language exists in isolation - good for you! Even though the so called Hausa culture as expressed today is just 'Islamic civilization of the muslim world with a few native tweaks' to most. In fact, original culture loss amongst the Hausa people has be utterly devastating // But hey Oga, this is not the Hausa people discussion page, so.... 'que sera sera'

• Secondly... What you see and call a qualification of being "hausaoid" among the Mokole Yoruba are simply cultural influences from their Bariba neighbours who completely surround them. I already stated that from the start.,,,, Their dressing is not 'Hausa dressing' if there is anything like that. If there exists any such thing, it is a 'sudanic west/central African' dressing mode ranging from the kaftans in Senegal and the Sahara to the 'Jibbas' in Sudan and Eritrea. Long flowing robes and Turbans are NOT an Hausa invention. lol
• The Yoruba clans you dismissed wasn't just Badagry.. You also said; Ijebu, Egba, Igbomina, Ekiti, Okun etc, which are all individual tribes with different 'languages' .. lol. As for Badagry it is a mixed town. Yoruba and Egun.
• The Map on the Yoruboid languages wiki page is someone's work and is not depicting the same thing mine is. His map is showing exact locations, mine depicts not only the location at a territorial divisional level but the degree of presence in each. Yes, wikipedia editors are supposed to respect one another (well, sort of) but that does not mean users/editors/the community tell people what to say, do or print.

If that map from glottolog is transduced into a provincial level map, it is essentially the same as the map already here.... (Unless you are telling me I shouldn't use the subnational levels one because YOU don't like the 'look' of it)

• This is the source map for the Nigerian section and as You can see, it does not distinguish between Edefoid (Yoruboid) languages, they are all the same color and the territorial limits are grossly inadequate for many languages based on information on ground. i.e Itsekiri and the igboid lects including Yoruba.

http://languages.y-bai.com/img/language_map/nga.png

Oramfe (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 13:34, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

Oramfe You can still make your point with the Yoruboid article map. It is from ethnologue, which is more reliable than your source. I think there should at least be a consensus, some form of compromise at the end of it all. I agree Mokolo are derived from Yoruba and You agree that map is out of place because of its expansionist tendency. We adopt a neutral and more reliable map. WIN WIN. Ppdallo (talk) 14:00, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

Ppdallo I am not engaging in this discussion with you to win. I am addressing your vandalism and why it wouldn't stand.

It isn't your place to accept that the Mokoles are Yorubas, neither is it your place to accept a map that clearly depicts what it is labelled to be... and does a good job at that.

In conclusion, I don't see the issue here.

-If at all I do change that map to use Ethnologue's resource, then the topic of any such new change will have to be altogether different since there is no way I can tell population sizes from the map, just immediate territory.

-The midway agreement here will be to hybridize both maps and limit the extent of the Mokole in Northern Benin to just their immediate lands alone as shown on ethnologue while adopting the population figures from peoplegroups.org — Preceding unsigned comment added by Oramfe (talk • contribs) 14:17, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

Oramfe Please have a look at this Video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OiZ3naVXgDQ) just for one minute. You will think they are Yoruba or Yoruboid? NO they are Hausa. They are wearing one of the many varieties of unique Hausa clothing, in this case specifically for hunters, long distance travelers and 'yantauri. HAUSA PEOPLE GAVE THIS DRESS TO OYO PEOPLE AND THEY LIKE IT, JUST LIKE THE NAME "YORUBA" which they like too.Ppdallo (talk) 14:24, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

Ppdallo lol... what I see is some Hausa people with Yoruba style agbada and caps. Some of them even donned in Yoruba narrow loom textiles and fabric design styles. It would be foolhardy of you to think that before Hausas traders started frequenting the areas of Yorubaland they weren't already exposed to these styles of clothing. Yorubas have been exposed to the interior of west Africa for ages.... This was the same way you almost jumped into conclusion about how Islam got introduced into Yorubaland a while ago. So what makes you think that Yorubas who have been in contact with early islamic west Africa since before the 1300s had to wait for Hausas to wear 'agbada-like' clothing? lol. The Yoruba precussor to the modern Agbada evolved from the 'Pakaja' style of wrapping or throwing a long robe around the body.

• Hausas didn't name Yoruba people Yoruba either. Your reference on the Yoruba article in reference to Hausa is very fallacious and I am revisiting that particular section very soon as well.. so keep on the lookout... Your caps lock tirade will soon be all for naught. :-D — Preceding unsigned comment added by Oramfe (talk • contribs) 16:04, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

Oramfe Hahaha Dutch Courage!I want you to be my best friend on Wikipedia :)Ppdallo (talk) 16:16, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

Ppdallo Better that than delusive contentment. A fool's paradise is no paradise at all. Oramfe (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 16:27, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

Oramfe Ok. I hope you don't cite Ibadan and Abeokuta women adire/indigo dyers because to start with, both Ibadan and Abeokuta were founded in the late 1800s by refugees after the Hausa Fulani have destroyed Oyo kingdom. Ppdallo (talk) 16:30, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

Oramfe As for Islam in Yorubaland, any secondary school certificate holder should know from West African History the story of Mallam Alimi and Afonja. I have it in my schedule to straighten the records on Islam in Yorubaland. Also Yoruba have no "narrow loom textiles" except the one introduced to coastal West Africa by Europeans in the late late 1800sPpdallo (talk) 16:43, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

Ppdallo Oga, how is dyeing the same thing as weaving/looming fabric through a weft?

Hausas used to be slaves, domestic servants and menial job doers in old Oyo which was very cosmopolitan. Internal political rivalry destroyed Oyo-ile and the Fulanis came as the opportunistic vultures they usually present themselves to be. Hausas were inconsequential.lol.... All they did was cower in runaway refuge towns like Suleja.\ while the utterly defeated were used as willing tools elsewhere.

Now, serious matters aside for a minute. Are you Hausa or "Hausa-Fulani"? Oramfe (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 16:52, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

Ppdallo Islam in Yorubaland began with Alimi the fulani preacher... slowclap for your own ignorance... ≤ ≤ ≤ ≤ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Oramfe (talk • contribs) 16:56, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

Oramfe Coolu ya temper bro. Back to our "Yoruba presence" map discussion. I expect you to substitute the ethnologue version else I will revert that section to before you introduced that map. Cheers and bye. See ya another time and peace!Ppdallo (talk) 17:09, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

Ppdallo We shall see about that. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Oramfe (talk • contribs) 17:26, 6 September 2021 (UTC)