Talk:Yisrael Kristal/Archive 1

Archive 1

Auschwitz Survivor

If he is a true Auschwitz survivor he would have a numbered tattoo on his body for Nazi Germany identification purposes. The Nazis numbered every Jew who came into Auschwitz at the time he claims to have been at the camp.The Nazis would also have kept records on him while he was at the camp . That would include his birthday and place he was from. If he has no tattoo then his claim is false. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.102.140.9 (talk) 12:55, 17 February 2016‎ (UTC)

that is not true. Almost all inmates had tattoos but not everybody - especially if they were on work squads. He was only there for 2 months as far as I am aware.

Mikkitobi (talk) 19:18, 12 March 2016 (UTC)

Wrong! Except for the ones taken directly to be killed all Jews were tattooed upon arrival without exception. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.17.223.59 (talk • contribs) 04:55, March 16, 2016‎

Nope, my late grandmother, like Kristal, was deported from the Lodz ghetto to Auschwitz in 1944, and worked there until the camp's release. She was not tattooed. 31.168.142.106 (talk) 13:48, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

Recognition of those responsible for locating the documents accepted as proof by Guinness World Records

I would like to know why Rms125a@hotmail.com insists on removing my edits where I add the names of those responsible for this successful outcome.

I admit I am one of those individuals and I and Stanley Diamond spent considerable time and effort working on this issue. Both of us appear in the background papers of proof of both the Gerontology Group and Guinness World Records.

Eventually Rms125a@hotmail.com stopped removing my edits and I thought we had finally come to an agreement but I then made the 'mistake' of undoing another change he had made where he changed the reference to Jewish Records Indexing - Poland to Jewish Records Indexing-Poland. Not major I know but it was wrong to remove the spaces around the dash. He clearly did not like being corrected by me and he then removed the other edits I had made.

This strikes me as being a very personal attack - why else would he have left my edit and only remove it when I changed something he had done?

I would like to add back in the facts of this case. Without the work done by Stanley Diamond and myself this case would never have been confirmed - or only at a much later date (and perhaps too late).

Mikkitobi (talk) 19:34, 12 March 2016 (UTC)

Calling User:Rms125a@hotmail.com's undoing of your edits a personal attack is unwarranted. In fact, I would call that statement a personal attack on him or her. Please comment on the edits rather than the editor.

Rms undid your addition of names off individuals with Jewish Records Indexing-Poland who were involved in the discovery. The cited references confirm that those individuals (the Executive Director and the Database Manager) were involved. So, all that needs to be decided is whether or not these two individuals' names need to be included in the article. I don't think so. As one of the sources points out, genealogists all over the world contributed to the effort to find supporting documents. Meters (talk) 20:48, 12 March 2016 (UTC)

I am sorry for calling it an attack but as I stated above Rms finally left my changes untouched and only removed them after I reverted an error he/she made in the formatting of the name of the organisation. Such behaviour is not logical and was not based on the content I had added to the article. You might not want to call it an 'attack' but it surely was not logical.

Genealogists all over the world have been researching Israel Kristal for several years and could not find sufficient evidence. I suggest you contact Guinness World Records or the Gerontology Group to see what the critical documents were. As the article points out Guinness require an 'early-life' document where the person is under 20 years old. There is only one such document discovered so far. I located it and we sent it to the Gerontology Group. We also sent other mid-life evidence that had never been seen before that we located in various archives in Poland. Without that 1 early-life document Guinness World Records would not have confirmed Israel as the oldest living man - no-matter how many researchers around the world had been working for how many years. Mikkitobi (talk) 21:25, 12 March 2016 (UTC)

My main gripe since this started has been @Mikkitobi's insistence on making a very promo-style announcement and name dropping. The reflinks give the details of which staffers helped find Kristal's Polish paperwork to validate the year of birth. I welcomed @Mikkitobi, giving him/her reading material and warned him/her about violating 3RR, which I knew that as a newbie he/she would not be knowledgeable about. I have nothing against him/her but he/she is quite exasperating. I don't think I've done anything wrong here. Respectfully submitted. Quis separabit? 22:12, 12 March 2016 (UTC)

yes i am a newbie and i found this experience exasperating too. I did also make other changes to the page that had nothing to do with my personal involvement that were hopefully of value.

I believe that the work Stanley and I did is worth acknowledging and on topic. I am disappointed that Guinness and the newspapers (who picked up the Guinness announcement) failed to properly acknowledge us (many not even mentioning our organisation). If I can get the Gerontology Group to acknowledge the work we did and the fact that without it Guinness would not have confirmed Israel as the world's oldest living man would that twist your arms enough to warrant changing the page?

Mikkitobi (talk) 22:26, 12 March 2016 (UTC)

No. It's not about the amount of work done or who did it. If the article were about the investigation it would be more pertinent, but the article is about Yisrael Kristal. Mention of the researchers who managed to find documentation of his age don't seem necessary, in my opinion. Give it some time for other editors to give their opinions. Meters (talk) 22:38, 12 March 2016 (UTC)

Could / Should this article have another section about the research/investigation? It actually used to have a section on the confirmation and somebody removed the section heading. And I guess again both Stanley and I would not be allowed to contribute directly to it....

Mikkitobi (talk) 22:51, 12 March 2016 (UTC)

As you were told here you should not edit anything in this article having to to with the research or the record. I don't think the article needs much information on the research that was done, but, as I said before, let's give it some time and see what other editors think. Meters (talk) 00:41, 13 March 2016 (UTC)

I have not edited anything here since I was told not to. What made you think I did? Meantime perhaps you should look at this. The Gerontology Research Group World Supercentenarian Rankings List. They are the organisation who do this research for Guinness World Records.

http://www.grg.org/SC/WorldSCRankingsList.html Check out item number 32, the oldest man on the list.

32 Israel Kristal Russia (now Poland) Israel 9/15/1903 112 yr, 179 days M W Waclaw Jan Kroczek/Oren Kristal/Stanley Diamond/Stefan Jamin/Michael Tobias 3/11/2016 1/23/2016 Y

Let me know what you think. Mikkitobi (talk) 01:43, 13 March 2016 (UTC)

I didn't say you had edited again. You said "I guess again both Stanley and I would not be allowed to contribute directly to it...." I merely pointed out that you have already clearly been told not to edit. There's no guessing required. If you are at all uncertain read WP:COI and read user:C.Fred's response to you again.

I don't care what that source says. I'm not disputing the man's age or that you were involved with finding the documentary evidence. For the third time, I don't think the information (specifically your name and the other man's name) should be in the article, and I would like to hear other editor's opinions. That means give it a few days, at the least, for others to comment. There's no rush. Meters (talk) 02:01, 13 March 2016 (UTC)

I am sorry but I thought it was important that I refer to that link on the grg.org site as the validity of my claim (and my trustworthiness) had been called into question. It has been suggested that I was trying to get a reference in the article when there was no source other than a self-published one to confirm my story.Mikkitobi (talk) 02:17, 13 March 2016 (UTC)

This is a biography of a man named Yisrael Kristal and of course, references to the reliable sources that verify his age should be included in the article. But that does not mean that the names of the fact checkers who helped verify his age should be included in the body of his biography. To me, that seems totally bizarre and overtly promotional. I recommend keeping this promotional factoid out of the article. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 06:35, 16 March 2016 (UTC)

I agree the primary point of the article is a biography of Yisrael Kristal. However the last section does refer to the confirmation of his status by Guinness and that confirmation used to have its own section in the article until it was removed. I suggest there should be a separate section about the confirmation - whether personal names are mentioned or not. As for being referred to as fact checkers I strongly dislike that phrase. We were not handed papers and asked to verify their contents like examination markers. We searched for and found the documents. Documents that had been look for unsuccessfully since 2014. Without that work he would not have been confirmed at this time. Mikkitobi (talk) 18:50, 16 March 2016 (UTC)

The article had a section on the claim (rather than the confirmation) called Claim to be the world's oldest man. The content of that section has been amended to include confirmation of the claim but the header has been removed, possible because the header needed to be updated but got lost. I agree that this should be in its own section rather than in Life in Israel and I will create a new header, but I do not agree that "there should be a separate section about the confirmation". If there are reliable independent sources showing that there was a major research project looking for documents then it can be mentioned as part of the section covering his status as world's oldest man. That status is the reason he is notable, not the search for documentation. Meters (talk) 20:41, 16 March 2016 (UTC)

There is nothing wrong or negative with the designation "fact checker" Mikkitobi, as those people search for and find documents as you said, and Wikipedia editors hold the work that such people do in very high regard. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 01:29, 17 March 2016 (UTC)

WW 1 Veteran?

As a 14 year old fought against the Germans as a partisan . Although not officially drafted still should be considered a veteran of WW1. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.18.55.90 (talk) 02:26, 12 August 2016 (UTC)

Can you provide a reference to support the assertion that he fought in WWI as a partisan?Ordinary Person (talk) 14:45, 19 April 2017 (UTC)

Evil eye

He also has great-grandchildren, but his family prefers not to state his exact number of descendants for fear of the "evil eye". Can someone please provide greater context for this idea?Ordinary Person (talk) 06:34, 16 April 2017 (UTC)

Yasutaro Koide time at death

Since January 19, 2016 was a Tuesday, did Yasutaro Koide died on January 19, 2016 at 12:17 am (1) or January 19, 2016 at 12:17 am (2), if it's (2) then it would be January 19, 2016 still where Kristal lived at that time, I am assuming it's (1) because it said January 18, 2016 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2605:A000:1103:217:3CEA:170E:2D2D:FAD3 (talk) 21:39, 6 August 2017 (UTC)

Israel or Yisrael?

Dear all,

I've noticed various sources over the Internet use various spellings of Mr Kristal's first name... which one is correct - Israel or Yisrael - and why? Who would have definite proof?

Thanks!Fiskje88 (talk) 07:44, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

As a rule of thumb, when it's a person's name ישראל is rendered Yisrael. But when it's referring to the country, or the Jewish people, ישראל is rendered Israel. --Île flottante (talk) 23:36, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

Thank you for your answer, Île flottante, yet I am not sure whether this rule of thumb applies in this specific case. As far as I am concerned, Mr Kristal was born in Poland - or, what is Poland today - and his original name was not (in) Hebrew. It also seems that, when looking at how Guinness World Records, who were in touch with the family as shown by the list of validators of Mr Kristal's age, spelled his name - "Israel" - that this must have been the family's preferred spelling. Then why would we, as Wikipedia, decide to overrule this? Fiskje88 (talk) 14:46, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

Birthplace?

Dear all,

We are educating the world that Mr Kristal's place of birth is "Maleniec", but this reliable source shows that it is in fact "Malenie". Shouldn't we change it then?

Regards, Fiskje88 (talk) 07:47, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

References

I think that it would be suitable to either put Maleniec or Malenie or near Żarnów in the infobox. There has been a debate over that and most media and database sources refer to Żarnów - Oliszydlowski, 18:00, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

Requested move 23 January 2018

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: no consensus to move the page at this time, per the discussion below. Dekimasuよ! 18:51, 5 February 2018 (UTC)

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Yisrael Kristal → Israel Kristal – This is his actual name. It's what he's called in Guinness Book of World Records 2018 and in everything else I've seen that mentions him. RightGot (talk) 18:06, 23 January 2018 (UTC)--Relisting. –Ammarpad (talk) 15:23, 30 January 2018 (UTC)

• His actual name is ישראל. The question here is how to transliterate that. "Yisrael" is the more correct version. Number 57 10:44, 3 February 2018 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Semi-protected edit request on 22 September 2018

Again, A user named Favonian has protected the page and the text got reverted saying it does not belong here. The text is sourced and reverts, blocks, and protection it's repeating. Will this vandalism go forever? Please add the following text requested below. 122.162.74.188 (talk) 05:55, 22 September 2018 (UTC)

This request was made 3 years ago - FlightTime (open channel) 04:38, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 22 September 2018

Again, A user named Favonian has protected the page and the text got reverted saying it does not belong here. The text is sourced and reverts, blocks, and protection it's repeating. Will this vandalism go forever? Please add the following text requested below. 122.162.74.188 (talk) 05:55, 22 September 2018 (UTC)

This request was made 3 years ago - FlightTime (open channel) 04:38, 1 September 2021 (UTC)