Talk:Xueta/Archive 1

What does this sentence mean?

In the Spanish Parliament, the politician Antonio Maura was shouted "Let the Xueta shut up" just for being Mallorcan.

You can't "shout" a person. If (as I'm guessing) this was shouted at him, who was it shouted by? (Also, when did this happen? I presume 100 or so years ago given Maura's dates. -- Jmabel | Talk 21:16, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

Hm, here's my humble speculation: I think the sentence is intended to mean that there were jeers heard in the parliament to the effect of "somebody have that Xueta shut up". //Big Adamsky 04:20, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

Yes, but from the gallery or from other Deputies? From one or from several? Once or repeatedly? And when? -- Jmabel | Talk 03:49, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

I just glanced the book in a shop and remembered that detail (and the approximate number of aaliyah-refusers). I don't remember who shouted. Perhaps the book include details and a bibliography. --Error 02:14, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

You can't "shout" someone, but in English you certainly can "shout someone down."Benami 21:23, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

I imagine it went something like this: "Que el chueta se calle!" - 'Will the Shueta shut up' Angryafghan 22:09, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Why make such a fuss over something that is no more then a typing/transcript/translation error. Original text makes is all perfectly clear (CI)

TVE documentary

By the way, according to a TV documentary shown on 28 December (yes, I know) 2005 in TVE 2, there is an association Arca (something) in Majorca, collecting genealogical records, teaching Hebrew and generally conciling Xuetas with their Jewishness, while leaving religion to themselves. Most of the interviewed claimed to feel Jewish and Majorcan by ethnicity and Catholic (or Catholic agnostic, if that is possible) by religion. The local Swedish rabbi is convinced that Xueta endogamy makes them pure Jew, not requiring the harder way of conversion of other re-Judaizing Conversos. There is one case of a Xueta turned Jew who is now a rabbi in Israel. The Swedish rabbi is leading at least one person through the conversion process. --Error 01:28, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

Duplicate article

There's another article with the title "Chueta" - what's the procedure for dealing with something like this? Benami 03:43, 8 January 2006 (UTC) Applied merge tag. Benami 08:57, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

Any sense of which way the merge should go? Since the word is Catalan/Balear, I'd be inclined to keep Xueta. -- Jmabel | Talk 03:44, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

That makes sense to me. Benami 21:29, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

A mess

What a mess! I don't know the topic well, so I hardly know where to begin. I hope someone with a clue will sort this out. I could do some copy editing, but I decided not to, because better writing might lead people to trust this while it is still a mass of contradictions and dubious claims.

• "how inhabitants of the island of Majorca use to call": not good English. Meaning, I guess, either a word they use to refer to them (in the present tense) or "how [they] used to call them" (but no longer do).
• "In English the Catalan word Shueta must be spelled Shueta (pl. Shuetes)." Why? Yes, that is how the "X" is pronounced in this word, but we do not normally change the spellings of words from Latin alphabets. On whose authority "must"?
• "Jewish ascent": I'm guessing that this must mean "Jewish descent". But elsewhere "some ascents [ancestors?] of the Pomar and Fuster families"? Utterly confusing.
• "… a notorious proportion of the population were Jewish": excuse me, are we saying that being a Jew is "notorious"???
• "City of Majorca": meaning Palma? or what?
• "The Shuetes don't differ from the rest of inhabitants of Majorca." "The Shuetes constitute a partial exception to that rule." "The Shuetes were in fact separated from the other Majorcans. They were the inhabitants of a concrete neighborhood, generally called Es Carrer (The Street). Their families didn't mix with the rest of Majorcans until 1950, approximately." So we are taking three different positions on the same question, all uncited.
• "Some of them performed obliterated Jewish rituals": I'm guessing that this means to say "…banned Jewish rituals". "Obliterated" does not seem apt here.
• "Probably [according to whom?] other names were added on that list at first, and some historians [who?] speak about a complicated set of them. [what the heck does this last phrase mean?]"
• "…and always must be pronounced in Catalan": I cannot imagine what this is intended to mean.
• "It is said [by whom?] that perhaps some ascents [ancestors?] of the Pomar and Fuster families were kohanim…"
• "Leviim" ==> "Levites"?
• Again, the incomprehensible construction that a person "was shouted" has reappeared.
• "The diminutive xuetó was obviously applied to the Shuetes' children": "Obviously"?
• "Accordingly to the Chalachah, the Shuetes are not Jewish." I assume this means to say "Halakha", Jewish law. This is a bold claim. If they are of Jewish descent in the female line, then according to Halakha they are Jews. If the claim is true elsewhere in the article that there was essentially no intermarriage ("Their families didn't mix…") until within living memory, then they would be descended from Jews in the female line and, hence, Jews under Halakha. What is the authority for saying they are not? Under Halakha, being a practicing Catholic has nothing to do with the matter.

[Actually, Xuetas, as not capable of proving matrilineal descent, are not considered Jews in the halakhic sense. This is a problem many who consider themselves to be Jews face when approaching an Orthodox lifestyle (mostly Ba'alei T'shuvah). Many people may have been told their whole lives that they were Jewish, but without documentary proof, the modern halakhic stance rules that this is not the case and they must convert in order to be considered halakhicly 'Jewish.' Ask an Orthodox halakhic authority. --MRD]

• • Somone subsequently changed this to "Accordingly to the Khalkha. Somehow, I doubt that a Mongolian tribe has any opinion in the matter. - Jmabel | Talk 18:26, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Not to mention nothing being cited. Unless someone wants to clean this up, I'd be inclined to start over, using clear citations for everything added. - Jmabel | Talk 23:47, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Uf. "Mess" barely begins to describe this mescla. I'd recommend putting this back at Chueta, restoring the obliterated [note correct use of the word] information from the former Chuetas and Chueta articles, and then incorporating whatever small amount as can be salvaged from the current version back into that article. Kulanu[1] and Shavei Israel[2] may have some useful information. Cheers, Tomer^talk 21:35, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Extraneous Information

This articles has a fair bit of extraneous information that makes reading difficult (to say the least). Here is a list of information I have removed as I organize this article:

• Jewish Catalan name examples: "Cofen, Quint, Abraham, Isac, Abel, Samsó, Salom, Elies, Gabriel, Costa, Ribes, Tur, Barceló, Castelló, Joan and many others"
• Randomly placed in (translated) article: "Fortesa is spelled also Forteza, and always must be pronounced in Catalan. "

66.229.160.94 03:13, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Start over

Joan sense nick (talk · contribs) suggests on his talk page that we might want to kill this and start over by translating the Spanish or Catalan articles on the topic. Any other views? - Jmabel | Talk 03:34, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree the only problem being that even the Spanish version is quite short and seemingly incomplete when compared to the Catalan version which is a comprehensive article. This then presents another problem, the difficult task of translating direct from Catalan. I can more or less understand the Catalan version but I do not speak the language and I don't anyone who could help with a translation. Angryafghan 21:58, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Let's start (from the Catalan) at Xueta/translation, then, once the translation is done, work out whether there is anything worth merging from elsewhere. - Jmabel | Talk 05:18, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

I've given this a "running start": I've translated the first several sections. I'd appreciate help, but I'll try to work on this on and off. - Jmabel | Talk 07:01, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Drastic change without summary or citation

[3]

Before: The term was used up until 1435, the date of the last mass conversion, when family names were included in the last list set up by the Catholic Church in Majorca after the series of autos-da-fe performed in 1691. The word xueta did, however, reappear during the 18th century and 19th century.

After: The term appeared in the second half of the 18th century, approximately sixty years after 1691, the date of the last mass conversion, when family names were included in the last list set up by the Catholic Church in Majorca after the series of autos-da-fe performed that year. The first registered form is xuyeta.

Can someone cite for one version or the other? - Jmabel | Talk 05:08, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

The translation is almost finished

The translation from Catalan (as suggested above) is almost finished.

I think we should move the current article to Xueta/old and add a {{mergeto}} on it, and move the translation here to Xueta with a {{mergefrom}}. In other words, the other will become the main line, but merging anything worth the merge is welcome.

Discussion of this proposal should be at Talk:Xueta/translation, because that is far more active at the moment. - Jmabel | Talk 05:54, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

We are going for it. The discussion during the process of translation can still be found at Talk:Xueta/translation. - Jmabel | Talk 00:21, 28 February 2007 (UTC)