Talk:Xinjiang internment camps

No evidence and no research

There has been given little evidence to these made up places. The only evidence comes from adrian zenz who only asked 8 people if 1 million people were detaines in these made up places. How do you get 1 million from only 8 people. The Chinese government white paper also never said 1 million people were detained. And those satellite images are also very vague. You show a satellite image of a building and automatically call it a camp? Some of those satellite images labeled a children's kindergarten and a apartment complex as a concentration camp. Why do they talk about boarding schools as if they only exist in Xinjiang? Do they not know millions of migrant workers children in East China also have to go to boarding schools because they are left unattended at whome when there patents go to work in the city? And do they only think that the vocational schools only exist in Xinjiang too? Chinese from every part of the country have to go to these schools if they can not pass the Gaokao exam or they can not attend higher education. And those vocational schools also have gates and dormitories and they also have to stay there for months so they can learn skills and work in skilled jobs. 97.124.206.4 (talk) 19:16, 26 December 2021 (UTC)

Would you mind providing sources to back up your claims? This sounds like denialism to me. X-Editor (talk) 04:48, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

Not Zenz but "Chinese Human Right Defenders" did use only 8 people to estimate a number of detainees:

The following table presents the data we have compiled based on interviews with eight ethnic Uyghurs. Their families reside in eight different villages in counties in the Kashgar Prefecture. According to the interviewees, each village has a population of between roughly 1,500 and 3,000, and the number of individuals taken into re-education detention camps from each village ranged from approximately 200 to 500 between mid-2017 to mid-2018.

AAAAA143222 (talk) 22:22, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

This site goes into detail into the flimsy "evidence" the press is using to treat these "concentration camps" as facts:

https://thegrayzone.com/2019/12/21/china-detaining-millions-uyghurs-problems-claims-us-ngo-researcher/

There's also this reddit thread, where the user has compiled a number of inconsistencies:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Sino/comments/hzphui/every_uyghur_allegation_debunked_as_of_2020_july/

I find it fairly upsetting that both this, and the "Uyghur genocide" pages read as if both things are facts beyond any reasonable doubt - when you apply some scrutiny, that is clearly not the case 2804:14C:CA25:8625:8C01:DC72:730D:3049 (talk) 03:43, 8 September 2022 (UTC)

The Gray Zone is not considered a reliable source per WP:RSP, and any web forum like reddit is not considered reliable. /r/sino, especially, is no where close to being reliable. At this rate you may as well have linked /r/genzedong for how inaccurate/biased the information from there is. — Czello 09:18, 8 September 2022 (UTC)

Every single piece of evidence regarding the alleged genocides and concentration camps come from, as far as I can tell, the Adrian Zenz study. Do you not think strange that what I just posted, which uses logic, common sense and empirical evidence, is not considered reliable, but a study by a far-right academic who has stated that "God has equipped me and used me to discover and expose these atrocities" is considered reliable? ( https://www.premierchristianity.com/interviews/meet-the-christian-investigator-equipped-by-god-to-expose-chinas-uyghur-genocide/5442.article ) 2804:14C:CA25:8625:EDF1:A366:41F1:4DC4 (talk) 20:14, 10 September 2022 (UTC)

If you're trying to promote reddit (especially /r/sino) as reliable, while accusing Zenz as being "far-right", then there's not much more to be done here. — Czello 21:51, 10 September 2022 (UTC)

According to WP:RS, reliable sources are published independent sources that have a reputation of fact-checking and accuracy, and that articles should be based on them. Then I want to ask: if a reliable source said 1+1=3 and an unreliable source said 1+1=2, which one would you trust ? (Of course, this is exaggerated to make the point clearer.) The one that you think makes sense, of course. So please look at the content first and see if it makes sense (By logic). If you don't know if it makes sense or not because it is not well proven, or it doesn't make sense at all, then you can bother about if it is reliable or not. Another example: A painting "Xyz" was painted in the 1700s and everybody knows that. In 2023, some reliable person A says that a painting he found is the original "Xyz" and not a modified/copied one, then some random person B says that it is a fake one, because there is a car in the painting A had and cars weren't there in the 1700s. Who would you trust?

Apply this to our case here. Please read the /r/sino content. It is pure logical reasoning that is presented, as 2804:14C:CA25:8625:EDF1:A366:41F1:4DC4 says. Pure logical reasoning. And no, I don't think he's trying to promote reddit as reliable. He's trying to say that pure logical reasoning is reliable. Tryute (talk) 02:44, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

If you could prove that a reliable source said 1+1=3, and had done so many times in recent years, then you could take it to WP:RSN and dispute its reliability. Then, depending on the weight of the evidence, its reliability would be reassessed. Your personal opinions (including your own sense of what is logical) are simply WP:OR if you cannot back them up with reliable sources. Hypothetical musings are not the stuff of which an encyclopedia is made. Comments along such lines are just like rain on the dashboard for the project. Iskandar323 (talk) 06:19, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

Well, it is pretty easy to find and prove that a reliable source said 1+1=3, and we don't need to say that it has done that a lot of times in recent years. Why would we if we only talk about one thing? Also, I don't need to dispute it's reliability: WP:RS says that some sources may provide stronger or weaker support for a certain statement, and it is the editors who need to judge if a source, reliable or not, is usable or inappropriate to use to support a statement. Maybe they say 1+1=3 for only this statement. For the reliable source that said 1+1=3: I actually found one by just randomly scrolling trough the reference section: BBC News, source 147. And here is my ''logical reasoning'' (It is very simple, even a bit hilarious).

1. A composite image shows 2884 photographs of detainees. I see, when zooming in the minuscule 2884 pictures, that some wear fashion. I see that there are around 20 images of the same person, wearing different clothes and in different poses. I see that those clothes are reused in 20 images of another person. (My POV at this point:) Looks like BBC doesn't have much budget in making these fake news. And those people are smiling, except those who are in big images, where we can see them very well. Hmm. This is very natural and makes a lot of sense. This definitly happens in "internment camps". I should definitely trust the BBC.
2. The video on the page shows a BBC man showing to an old man what happened to his son. The old man then gives a paper to the BBC man, then the BBC man points at the paper and says something like ''...the database shows that your son is condemned with 15 years of prison...'' The old man then cries and mumbles something in maybe his language. You know what? Turns out, as I played the video in slow motion and read what was on the paper, it said ''citizen identity card'' in simplified chinese! I see nothing about 15 years of prison, and how would a man captured in a "concentration camp" still have an identity card? If I was Hitler and I captured someone, I would be smart enough to decide to destroy any evidence that the "someone" existed! Oh I can't believe it, BBC makes so much sense.
3. The images. Some show people in the "camp", and in the background, I saw some arabic-like words on the walls. I'm not sure because I'm no expert in arabic, but the characters looked like arabic. Hmm. If I was Hitler, in 1942 or whatever, I would definitly put hebrew and Jewish religion content on display in my camps, because I hate them so much that I must display their culture. It makes so much sense. Also, in the same image, the supposedly "internment camp for Uyghurs" "proof" photos shown have guards that look exactly like the same race and skin color than the prisoners. Hmm. Totally not an image of a normal prison. Other images show photographies of people in the "camps". Because the background of each photography is alike, I could say that they were took in the same place. In one of them, in the background, I could see a door. The typical house door: it was grey, with a little hole with lens in the middle of the door, to see who was outside when someone was knocking. Hmm. Photos totally took in "camps". Are these things normal to see in "internment camps"? Totally! It is definitly what we find in internment camps! BBC is so right about this subject! It is the best source ever!

If you still think the BBC article makes sense, I can write more arguments if you want. The things I mentioned up there are my common sense and my logic. I may have mental problems that distort my understanding of what is logical, but it is unlikely. I hope you understand my "sense of what is logical" and that you consider my reflections about not needing reliable sources for it. I agree with you that Wikipedia isn't made up of hypothetical musings, but it seems like (my opinion:) this rumor about internment camps is made up of hypothetical musings. Also, as WP:RS says, no source is completely reliable, as well as for vice versa. BBC may be reliable on weather news, but maybe not on economy news (Example). Tryute (talk) 01:09, 13 January 2023 (UTC)

If you want to make up your own truth, the place for that is Reddit, or one of many other blogs. This discussion has no place here. Iskandar323 (talk) 06:43, 13 January 2023 (UTC)

Where do you see that I made up my own truth? Tryute (talk) 19:23, 13 January 2023 (UTC)

And by that do you mean you think the BBC article makes sense? Nothing is wrong with it? Tryute (talk) 19:45, 13 January 2023 (UTC)

Have you even read my text? Seems like you completely ignored it. Tryute (talk) 19:47, 13 January 2023 (UTC)

Well I read all that you wrote and found it (from my pov) to completely misrepresent the contents of the ref on all three of your alleged points. Please specify one duplicate pair of images, or one case where the subject is smiling. Clearly you interpret the video in a way very different from my understanding of it. And similarly your observations on the incidental details do not match my reading of the article as a whole and all of its contextual background information... There are 454 other references that we could debate, but I'm not going to. Yadsalohcin (talk) 01:35, 14 January 2023 (UTC)

He's asking for evidence and you told him to provide evidence to support that there is no enough evidence? That's ridiculous 203.186.166.58 (talk) 03:54, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

References

How come Xinjiang camps are referred to as "internment camps" if human rights abuses, rape, torture, and genocide happen there

How come Xinjiang camps are referred to as internment camps if allegations of human rights abuses, rape, torture, and genocide take place there. If calling Japanese American concentration camps internment camps is a euphemism than the same should go for Xinjiang camps. 95.151.194.20 (talk) 09:54, 18 June 2023 (UTC)

We go with whatever name is the WP:COMMONNAME from sources. The majority of sources use this term. — Czello ^(music) 10:01, 18 June 2023 (UTC)

Yes but calling Xinjiang camps "internment camps" is euphemistic, surely there must be some source out there that refers to them as "concentration camps" or "death camps", unless if the genocide, rape, and torture is all propaganda.95.151.194.20 (talk) 14:16, 18 June 2023 (UTC)

There very well may be, but for us to use that as the primary name of the article it needs to be demonstrated that's the common name: see WP:COMMONNAME — Czello ^(music) 14:32, 18 June 2023 (UTC)

Like I said before, if crimes against humanity, such as genocide, rape, and torture take place there then calling them "internment camps" is euphemistic but if it's all atrocity propaganda then I would be fine with calling it that. Like you wouldn't call Japanese American concentration camps "internment camps" would you.95.151.194.20 (talk) 19:04, 18 June 2023 (UTC)

Again, you would need to demonstrate that most reliable sources use the term you feel should be used, in order to use it for this article. Our personal views are not relevant. 331dot (talk) 19:24, 18 June 2023 (UTC)

This isn't how Wikipedia works. We relay what the majority of sources say, we don't make our own interpretations. — Czello ^(music) 19:27, 18 June 2023 (UTC)

Well I did find a news article on Vox referring to the Xinjiang camps as concentration camps and claiming that forced labour goes on there. 95.151.194.20 (talk) 17:54, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 29 August 2023

• What I think should be changed: Under "Malyasia" in section Xinjiang internment camps § Reactions by countries,

−

In September 2020, [[Malaysia]]'s new government decided not to extradite ethnic Uyghurs to China if Beijing requests it. Despite the government of Malaysia's stance not to get involved in Chinese internal affairs, it has stated that Uyghurs are being oppressed in the country. [[Mohd Redzuan Md Yusof]], minister in the Prime Minister's Department also stated that his government would provide free passage to those refugees who would want to settle in a third country.

+

In September 2020, the [[Muhyiddin Yassin|Muhyiddin]] government confirmed that it would not extradite ethnic Uyghurs to China if Beijing requests it, continuing the policy set by the [[Mahathir Mohamad|Mahathir]] administration. Although it is the government of Malaysia's stance not to get involved in Chinese internal affairs, it stated that the oppression of Uyghurs in the country could not be denied. [[Mohd Redzuan Md Yusof]], minister in the Prime Minister's Department also stated that his government would grant free passage to those refugees who wished to settle in a third country.

• Why it should be changed: specify clearer subject than ambiguous "new government"; clarifies that this did not represent a policy change; general copyediting; removes duplicate link Malaysia redundant with preceding heading
• References supporting the possible change (format using the "cite" button): already supported by existing citatioon

2406:3003:2077:1E60:D760:F1FB:9E28:69EF (talk) 23:40, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

References

 Done Lightoil (talk) 12:35, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 6 December 2023

In the section about camp detainees, change "Russian-American Gene Bunin created the Xinjiang Victims Database to collect public testimonies on people detained in the camps, and its content had been referenced in articles by Al Jazeera, RFA, Foreign Policy, the Uyghur Human Rights Project, Amnesty and Human Rights Watch." to "Russian-American Gene Bunin created the Xinjiang Victims Database to collect public testimonies on people detained in the camps." with citations to those entities at the end of the sentence.

There is no need to appeal to authority and mention who has ever referenced the database. In other words, it is more encyclopedic to reference them instead of saying they reference it. 195.23.45.50 (talk) 05:53, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

•  Not done Content is properly sourced, content and references contain meaningful information regarding the subject, article will not be improved by proposed change.  // Timothy :: talk  06:05, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

  Is there a reason why the only other relevant info about the database is the follow-up sentence that brings up the "incident" with Andy Lau, which was basically a visual typo that the database corrected immediately and explained in detail (but which was blown out of proportion by pro-China accounts and media as an attempt to discredit the entire database)?

  That such a reaction was elicited might be relevant to mention (it is mentioned in the Wikipedia page for the database itself) if the database is described in detail, but it seems strange - in the case where only two sentences are devoted to it - to use the entire second sentence to cast doubt on the database's validity without addressing all of the other credible work and content in the database, which dwarfs this. Again, there seems to be little concern about this "incident" outside pro-China social media and state media, so this addition/edit doesn't feel very neutral in nature.

  In short, this focus seems extremely disproportionate (probably in the main Wiki on the database also, but there it's more warranted). 111.241.151.97 (talk) 14:14, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

  None of the sources covering it are Chinese "state media" whether it is AsiaOne or China Press which are mainstream outlets in Singapore and Malaysia. The "incident" as you say in quotes is also reported in notable HK outlets like Headline Daily and Hong Kong Economic Times, and SCMP is considered acceptable per WP:SCMP. Of course mainland Chinese state media also reports on it but considerable the amount of non-PRC sources on this incident it would not warrant deletion, only at worst being moved to the "Responses from China" section. Donkey Hot-day (talk) 07:12, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 21 April 2024

Camp detainees section:

"The mass internment of Uyghurs and other Turkic Muslims in the camps has become largest-scale arbitrary detention of ethnic and religious minorities since World War II."

Should be:

"has become THE largest-scale..."

Thank you! 2A02:C7E:3188:4C00:2053:4FFE:A58F:AC90 (talk) 09:30, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

I seem to have accidentally stolen the citations on Donkey Hot-day's post above mine, I can't figure out how to give them back am so sorry 2A02:C7E:3188:4C00:2053:4FFE:A58F:AC90 (talk) 09:34, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

Fixed! Thanks for pointing it out. Yadsalohcin (talk) 10:15, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

 Done Charliehdb (talk) 10:00, 21 April 2024 (UTC)