Talk:Xenophobia in South Africa

Uitlanders

A bit beyond my vuurmaak plek, but there should probably be a section on the Uitlanders in the ZAR, its role in the lead-up to the Second Anglo-Boer War etc. 105.184.61.131 (talk) 20:03, 15 May 2014 (UTC)

Perpetrators

The background section needs to be expanded to identify the perpetrators (social, ethnic, political affiliation), and what they stand for.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.211.168.17 (talk • contribs)

That kind of information is not yet reliably available. There are indications that many of the attackers are Zulu, but many are also not and there aren't sufficient indications of ethnic homogeneity to draw a conclusion. Similarly with political affiliation: While accusations have been thrown around that the attackers are (variously) IFP supporters, right-wing instigators or Jacob Zuma supporters, there's no hard evidence to suggest any kind of unified political link. About the only thing we do know is that the attackers are poor and living in townships and hostels, but even this is uncertain in that we can't be sure how poor they are or what their specific socio-economic status is. There remains far too much uncertainty about the character and background of these attacks; and the ANC certainly doesn't seem eager to uncover them itself. They're a little too busy looking for apartheid-era bogeymen under every burned-out shack and dead body. — Impi (talk) 20:28, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

it has now almost been 3 years and this still has not been updated. PhumiKD (talk) 20:48, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

Death Toll - May 22

I still see BBC reporting ~22 deaths, but I caught a ticker-tape claiming 40-something. The Mail & Guardian and iAfrica are reporting 42 as of last night (Wed, 21 May). Warrickball (talk) 07:24, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Name

"pogrom" would be more suitable --TheFEARgod (Ч) 09:03, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

How about 2008 South African riots or 2008 riots in South Africa? -- Jeandré, 2008-05-25t21:52z

For long-term use, I prefer Xenophobia in South Africa. This article considers the events of recent weeks only; surely a general entry, including the history (if any) of similar pogroms, would better stand the test of time. Also, it allows expansion beyond acts of violence, and presumably the roots of the violence can be found in non-violent xenophobia preceding it. 9Nak (talk) 17:03, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Good idea. The new lead must mention the 2008-05-11/ riots as the most significant xenophobic event, but will also mention previous events like the murders from source [6] (which could be fleshed out as a section). The existing article will then become a section. I'd suggest you wait a week or so for any objections, and if there aren't any, move it and rework the lead. -- Jeandré, 2008-06-10t11:40z, -- Jeandré, 2008-06-10t11:49z

Added a {{rename}} template to the top of the page to see if we can get more input. Not listed at Wikipedia:Requested moves as there doesn't seem to be opposition to the proposal. 9Nak (talk) 22:12, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

Done, with a new intro and top section. I'll let it simmer a while before starting to summarise the specifics of the May riots. 9Nak (talk) 11:33, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

I would suggest moving this back to the previous title. The article is currently writen entirely from the context of the 2008 riots (with the single possible exception of the "Recent history of xenophobia in South Africa" section), and 2008 riots were certainly notable enough for their own article. –Black Falcon ^(Talk) 21:32, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

I'd rather fix the basic problem as I see it, which is that the article ignores all other instances of xenophobia. Agreed, the 2008 riots are notable enough for a separate article right now, while the issue is hot. A year or five from now, however, the detail in this article will be superfluous – and we may still not have a general overview article. I'd rather cut down on the detail here, go to a greater level of abstraction and try (it's gonna be hard to source) to include history going back so far as opposition to "new" settlers from France or Britain at the time of the Boer Republics, say. 9Nak (talk) 11:12, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Having been in South Africa for quite some time now I am curious to see what 'other' instances of xenophobia would be listed here.

This article gives the, (somewhat wrong), impression that xenophobia is an almost daily occurrence in South Africa.

I think that even if we wanted to we could not really expand this article much more past the 2008 events. FFMG (talk) 11:27, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Erm. Xenophobia in South Africa#Recent history of xenophobia in South Africa lists (sourced) instances of violent attacks from 1995 and 2007. Here is a piece on a conference in 2005, and here is a piece on a 2004 Parliament and Human Rights Commission discussion.

Looking at these sources it seems that xenophobia is a daily occurrence. Physical attacks may be fewer and further between, but police harassment and unexpressed resentment looks to me to have been a constant for the last 14 years. 9Nak (talk) 11:48, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying it does not happen, but definitely to the extent the title implies. There are 6 lines on the 'recent history' and the rest, (maybe 200 lines?), is all about the 2008 riots. Clearly, most of the article is about the 2008 attacks, and the rest is just a footnote about xenophobia in South Africa.

Briefly looking at the sources I am not sure where you saw that attacks were a daily occurrence, (you must agree that a 2005 and 2004 article is not quite the same as daily attacks).

But, if you think that South Africa has such a massive problem it should be easy for you to expand the 6 lines about the recent history to something a bit more substantial. FFMG (talk) 12:35, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Agreed, the non-2008 section needs to be greatly expanded, and I'm working on that. But you misunderstand: xenophobia does not equal violence. Violence against foreigners is relatively rare, but xenophobia - the irrational dislike or fear of people from other countries – that is indeed a daily occurrence. Give me 24 more hours with the page and I'll have that solidly sourced. Also, I fail to see the title implying anything. From where I'm standing it's neutral and could just as well head up a stub reading "South Africa is a country with no recorded xenophobia, ever." 9Nak (talk) 15:49, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

I believe the title should be changed to "Anti-immigrant riots in South Africa". Using the definition of xenophobia as "intense or irrational dislike or fear of people from other countries" one cannot conclude that the people of South Africa are, on the whole, in fear of people from other countries. They may also generally "like" rather than dislike people from other countries, but do not wish them to be allowed to immigrate (potentially illegally) to South Africa. There is nothing in this article which suggests South Africans dislike people from other countries or have an irrational fear of them, only that they do not wish them to immigrate to South Africa. This better refer to "anti-immigrant" sentiment than "xenophobic" sentiment. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Colonycat (talk • contribs) 21:52, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

Killarney.

Under the section on disturbances in Cape Town it says that Somalis were evacuated to Killarney. The link takes me to Killarney, Ireland instead of Killarney township.Neumannk (talk) 19:56, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Unlinked. -- Jeandré, 2008-05-25t21:52z

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Geography

References of xenophobia 196.25.127.70 (talk) 18:10, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

Racial/ethnic component

I'm struck by the lack of references to race or ethnicity in this article, especially compared to other articles about South Africa. Is South African xenophobia uniquely focused on nationality? Most countries don't even have this kind of article -- there is no Xenophobia in the US or Xenophobia in Europe, presumably because the issues are so interlinked with race and ethnicity. I would expect the same to be true in South Africa. Can the pure xenophobic/national component really be surgically separated from the ethnic component? If so, where has the ethnic component of all this xenophobia been moved to? Ornilnas (talk) 14:03, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

Geography

Why 165.165.144.105 (talk) 10:35, 4 September 2022 (UTC)

Makwerekwere

do not where does this fit in this article, but the use of the term "Makwerekwere" can be included FuzzyMagma (talk) 16:32, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

possible NPOV edits?

This isn't really a topic I have any knowledge in, but a string of recent edits to this article by 41.10.160.79 (talk · contribs) (Special:Diff/1167591413 and the following few) have removed a decent chunk of sourced material, and seem to be rewording specific parts of the article. Is there any consensus on this, or is this just blatant POV-pushing? mir ^:3 18:32, 28 July 2023 (UTC)