Talk:Wuxia/Archive 3

Potential New Source - also possible CoI for me

I recently sold an article on Wuxia which should be available in a few months provided it doesn't get killed in the meantime. This could represent an english language source for the article but... since I wrote it... I have a clear CoI with regard to the source. In a few months, when it's available, would it be kosher to post a link to it and have some of you guys review it to determine if you want to use it as a source? Simonm223 (talk) 22:52, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

My article is up at ezine.kungfumagazine.com if other editors consider it a RS please go ahead and use it. I have a CoI so I can't really put material from it in. Simonm223 (talk) 15:49, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

It's here. I took a quick glance at it. Indeed, it can be used as a source not only for this article, but also maybe for some of the Jin Yong novels as well. Good job! _LDS (talk) 16:15, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

Thanks! I am glad to have helped. Simonm223 (talk) 16:20, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

WikiProject Wuxia

A WikiProject on Wuxia-related articles is currently under construction here. Anyone interested in joining the project can help out. Thanks. _LDS (talk) 14:05, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Merger proposal with Chinese knight errant

The information on Chinese knight errant seems to have connections with the history, themes, plots and settings sections of Wuxia. I propose that the former be merged into the latter, as per the second and fourth points listed at WP:MERGE#Rationale. _LDS (talk) 13:57, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

I object on the grounds that Youxia are historical persons mentioned in dynastic and local histories from the Han to the Qing. Wuxia is simply a fictional genre. Youxia may appear in Wuxia works, but they are not central to it. They also appear in other forms of media including theater plays and poetry. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 01:10, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

Youxias serve as characters for Wuxia stories, so why are they not central to the Wuxia genre? A Wuxia story wouldn't be labelled as one if there're no Youxias in it. Those theater plays and poetry you've mentioned most probably belong to the Wuxia genre. And can you name any real Youxias who have appeared in Chinese history? _LDS (talk) 13:04, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

By central, I meant they are fictional characters specifically created for that genre and that they appear nowhere else in any form of media or in actual historical records. Youxia do appear in Wuxia works, but, since there are many historical examples, it’s clear that they were not created specifically for the genre. Stage plays and poetry about historical Youxia do not fall under the fictional umbrella of Wuxia.

A good comparative example is the American cowboy. They are known to have historically existed (still do in parts of the south) and there is even a huge "western” genre about them. However, their gun fighting exploits are all fictional. There are no recorded instances where two men lined up on a closed street and fired at each other like they do in the movies. Likewise, the exploits of Youxia in modern wuxia literature (i.e. flying through the air, qi blasts, etc.) are not based on those of their historical counterparts. That's why only fictional Youxia should be mentioned on this page if anything.

Yes, I can name several historical Youxia. I don't have access to their Chinese characters, so I can't give the current pinyin, only wade-giles. If I list more than one per number that means they are connected. If I don't list any dates for them individually, it means I don't know them:

1. Prince Wu-chi (ob. 243 BC), Hou Ying (326-257 BC), and Chu Hai
2. Ching K'o (ob. 227 BC), T'ien Kuang (ob. 232 BC), and Kao Chien-li (ob. c. 222 BC)
3. Kuo Hiseh (ob. c. 127 BC)
4. Chu Chang (ob. c. 28 BC)
5. Chan Hui and Chao Chun-tu
6. Chi Yun (1st century AD)
7. Lu Su (172-217)
8. Hsi K’ang (223-262)

I could go on and on naming people, but I’m sure you get the point. I have a list of names that goes up through the Qing. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 14:11, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

Very well then. Maybe because the Chinese knight errant article is not very developed yet, so it seems to overlap with Wuxia. Some clarification should be done to distinguish between real Youxia and the Youxia in Wuxia fiction. If that's the case, I'll call off the merger then, ok? _LDS (talk) 14:26, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

Sounds fine to me. I have been meaning to expand the Youxia article for some time, but I have been busy with school and work. I won't be able to do anything to it for a while. Youxia currently casts them in a historical light, so maybe any mentions in this article outside of the historical background section should be labeled as fiction. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 14:33, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

Ok. :) _LDS (talk) 14:36, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

Proper noun?

On what basis is "wuxia" declared to be a proper noun?
This article generally is full of words which are not proper nouns in English but are treated as such, like Samurai and Bushido, etc., etc.
Varlaam (talk) 20:49, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

jianghu section move or merge?

The section on jianghu seems fairly redundant since there is an article on jianghu. However, there appears to be some information here that is not on that page. I don't think that page should be merged w/ this one, but perhaps the information in this one could be merged into that article and then linked from here? -Jaardon (talk) 10:27, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

I think we can move the information here to Jianghu. However, please note that it is unreferenced and may contain original research. If possible, we can summarize the Jianghu section here, because I think it's still quite essential in helping readers understand Wuxia culture better. 暗無天日 _{contact me (聯絡)} 13:31, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

section "The Code of Xia"

This should at least include 仁 if it is not removed entirely because of OR. —Preceding signed comment added by MythSearcher^talk 06:13, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

Teo source

I removed it due to it being restored after an IP removed it. It seems to be WP:UNDUE as no Japanese or Chinese sources support that claim, not even found in Japanese dictionaries. I found no Japanese sources stating 武俠 or 武侠 as a Bushido genre, nor the word Bukyo used as this Bushido genre but it was used by 1 webpage for the Chinese Wuxia genre(it was used for Bukkyo 仏教 instead). Ironically, the first Bukyo used as the kanji 武侠 in google results actually comes from the anime Seiho Bukyo, which further made the possibility of Bukyo being used in Japan as a genre less sounding. —Preceding signed comment added by MythSearcher^talk 01:19, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

Stephen Teo is a respected and much-published academic; Chinese Martial Arts Cinema is published by a well-known academic press; the citations for his claims include Ikuo Abe, a Japanese academic who has published a number of articles on the relationship between Japanese sport/athletics, adventure fiction, and militarism. He certainly qualifies as a reliable source. Bukyō appears in dictionaries and other sources (including the online tangorin.com) as "chivalry" (wuxia fails to appear in any form in some Chinese dictionaries). It was used for adventure fiction and magazines and publishing houses specializing in same in the early 20th century; the works of Shunro Oshikawa are important here. The term had also been used in the Tokugawa era in the context of bushido. A cite from another RS criticizing or contradicting Teo would be enough to modify or remove the claim; in the meantime I'm putting it back in. Ergative rlt (talk) 04:27, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

I really wonder. The so called Tongorin.com is the first google result march of a Japanese dict(with the search of "Bukyō" minus the anime name returned an overwhelmingly low result of 1390), it is in fact an online dictionary, and it started rather late compared to the Wuxia genre. I actually checked 3 printed paper Japanese dictionaries and got no results. And in fact, the entry in tangorin: 武侠小説 [ぶきょうしょうせつ] /(n) swashbuckling stories/martial arts fiction/chivalric knight novels/wuxia xiaoshuo/ actually gives credit to wuxia as well instead of stating wuxia as a calque. I am not saying it as not WP:RS, I am saying it as undue. Chinese and Japanese had a lot of words in common, because the current Japanese language basically originates from China. (At least the kanji and kana systems are). The fun fact is, quoting Japanese people claiming a Chinese word as a calque of Japanese sounded really biased. If you want another RS, This site quotes Japanese academic published information and have a thorough history of wuxia dating back to early/before Qin dynasty and said nothing about wuxia being a calque. If the information is of due weight, such a thorough research should include such information. —Preceding signed comment added by MythSearcher^talk 17:06, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

I removed it on the same basis. It is undue, and it is logically impossible to prove something's nonexistence, so proving it is not a calque is impossible. Yet the source claiming it to a calque is only a simgle one off appearance source, thus WP:UNDUE. The source, although is RS, does not state in itself where this information came from, by research or simple wild guess. —Preceding signed comment added by MythSearcher^talk 08:35, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

terminology and etymology

武侠 literally means martial/armed hero(es), or martial heroics, not martial artists as mentioned under the Wu Xia article.

游侠 literally reads wandering hero(es). In most, not all, wuxia stories, the protagonists are wandering martial artists who, voluntarily or not, right injustices.

江湖 literally means rivers and lakes. In wuxia, it is used in the stead of 社会, the modern Chinese words for "society".

There is no Japanese equivalent of the term 武侠. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Darkmax1974 (talk • contribs) 16:51, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

Two academic sources, cited in the article, disagree with you. Ergative rlt (talk) 20:38, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

The fun thing is, none of these are Chinese sources, in which, should be more knowledgeable about these terms and culture. I am pretty sure that most Chinese people, even those with thorough expertise in this particular topic, will not agree with the sources, which is pretty much speculative and ignored earlier culture, tradition and stories in China. In fact, as I posted above, even Japanese people gave different views. Anyway, WP:V states that wikipedia required verifiability, not truth, and [WP:NPOV]] states we present all notable views, so I guess if you can get two sources, you are welcome to do so here. —Preceding signed comment added by MythSearcher^talk 02:37, 24 December 2010 (UTC)