Talk:Wuthering Heights/Archive 1

Archive 1

Archive 2

Disambiguation

Could someone create a disambiguation page, besides this novel, there's not only the song but also the group Wuthering Heights.

I'm not really sure how to create that page myself :) Absolute Zero 13:50, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

Catherine's son????

"His love for Catherine is all-encompassing. He ruins her life and that of her son's in order to avenge her betrayal."

She didn't have a son did she?

Also, it was as much Edgar not accepting Heathcliff's position as Catherine's oldest friend as Heathcliff's actions which caused Catherine's demise.—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:{{{1}}}|{{{1}}}]] ([[User talk:{{{1}}}|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/{{{1}}}|contribs]])

The writer mean's daughter, I guess. Or Isabella and Heathcliff's son, or Hindley's son, which makes more sense as Heathcliff turns him into a brute. I've added that. Oh, and he kills Earnshaw via alcoholism, I don't think that's as prominent as the other two though, and the list might as well say 'everybody.'Ethan Duffy 21:17, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Unreliable Narrator?

Wuthering Heights is a good example of the unreliable narrator (it's a story told by a man retelling a story told by a woman who was not present at most of the events in the book). Should this be discussed in the article? Pearce.duncan 01:27, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Maybe in passing, but Nelly's sub-narration is really only told directly through Nelly, and anything not directly seen by her is said through other characters, again in a first-person style. Lockwood is circumlocutory and self-persuasive but Bronte does not write in that style for much of the novel.Ethan Duffy 22:19, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Summary and characters

I just did some re-arranging of the plot summary - it seemed a bit disjointed and disordered before (including a 'part three' heading, despite the fact that the novel is only two volumes - according to my copy, at least). I also added a brief summary of the main characters, since I think it's useful for readers to have a quick guide to who the main characters are without having to read through the entire plot summary to get this information. Any comments are, of course, welcome.--Joseph Q Publique 13:09, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Spam

I'm not going to commit a potential 3RR but the link being added to the article is spam. A Project Gutenberg version of Wuthering Heights is already linked and the link being added (if you fix the mangled URL, as is the address is not even correct) is a link to a site advertising all sorts of prom dresses next to the Wuthering Heights text -- clearly unacceptable. Would someone please fix? --JayHenry 01:49, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Incorrect spelling in caption

One of the captions refers to a Northern Yorkeshire. There should be no E in the middle. I would correct this myself, except I have no idea how to edit a caption. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.29.39.33 (talk • contribs) 19:16, 30 July 2007.

Thanks for pointing that out. I've fixed it. Cheers. ElinorD (talk) 19:24, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

eclipse

In Stephenie Meyer's novel Eclipse, Wuthering Heights is mentioned several times. Should there be any mention of that in the literary refrence section? Sophiakorichi 03:18, 5 September 2007 (UTC)Sophiakorichi

moved Trivia

I moved Trivia from article to Talk below, in case there's anything worth merging as prose into the article (nothing in my opinion). I first removed some linkspam.-Wikianon 03:07, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Incorrect dates/ages

According to the timeline given here, Catherine Earnshaw was 18 when she died. According to page 57 in my edition of Wuthering Heights, Catherine Earnshaw was 22 years old when she accepted Edgar Linton's marriage proposal. Nelly says, "'Do you love Mr Edgar?' Catherine - 'Who can help it? Of course I do,' she answered. Then I put her through the following catechism - for a girl of twenty-two, it was not injudicious." Unless, it is saying that Nelly was 22 when she gave Catherine this advice, but that doesn't seem to fit in the context. Maybe someone could try to fix the dates; I haven't got the time to do it myself. - Lyr 12.218.6.81 02:47, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

I researched the character's ages for my website and Catherine was certainly 18 (just possibly 19) when she died. She was 15 when Edgar proposed and Ellen was 22 so Ellen is referring to her own age (that she was talking to her in a mature way for someone quite young). Lowenna (talk) 14:57, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Musical/Opera versions

Are the two "musicals" mentioned in the opener, the two opera mentioned at the end? If not, some clarification on those musicals would be good. 144.173.6.67 12:54, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Well to be honest it doesn't actually spoil the book that Heathcliff dies, and if that really is 'spoiler' then why do you read? Its not the ending that makes the book its how the author pieces things together —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.203.189.91 (talk) 18:31, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

On Heathcliff Dying "broken and tormented"

It says this both on the main page and on the character page- it also says he let up on his plans mostly due to his seeing the two young people in love- while this latter may be the case, there is no evidence of it in the novel- the novel seems to leave open the possibility that he lets up on them because he is indifferent to them, and preoccupied with the apparition of his Catherine, who is now haunting him seemingly day and night and seems to have informed him, somehow, of his impending death, where he might rejoin her. Now considering that, how did he die broken and tormented? He dies more happily than any other character in the book- he dies smiling- he dies saying he doesn't need a priest to bless him or teach him, because he'll be going to HIS heaven- where are 'broken and tormented' coming from, in all that? That's the source material- the synopsis given at this site is from nowhere but the imagination of a reader who clearly is not very attentive. —Preceding unsigned comment added by TannerPW3 (talk • contribs) 04:03, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree- he's not broken. He feels free at last; free to join his Cathy in the afterlife. He's so happy, in fact, that he doesn't bother to eat, drink or sleep for days on end. KillerKat (talk) 23:58, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

I've added an infobox, but it is very incomplete. Could someone who knows more about this book please expand it? ~Sushi 10:40, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Other Allusions

When did Steinman say "Total Eclipse of the Heart" was a reference? I can find no record of this. There was once an interview when "It's All Coming Back to Me" was being discused and he mentioned WH. 24.211.249.43 00:49, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Total Eclipse of the Heart" ... by Jim Steinman, inspired by the novel.

Doubts seconded. Here's the Steinman interview: Jim Steinman On "It's All Coming Back To Me Now". A thorough Google and News search finds no refs to TEOTH referring to WH, even on the official Steinman site, beyond very recent unattributed ones that might have derived from Wikipedia. Gordonofcartoon 03:28, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

In the preface of his novel Le bleu du ciel, the French writer Georges Bataille states that, in his view, Wuthering Heights belongs to those rare works in literature written from an inner necessity. BUT REMARK ALSO THAT GEORGES BATAILLE'S BOOK 'LA LITTÉRATURE ET LE MAL' DEDICATES A WHOLE CHAPTER (THE 1ST. ONE)TO IT.--207.249.136.254 (talk) 19:21, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

A lesbian story?

Has anyone heard this theory? I know that at least two people have put forward the idea that it is a disguised homoerotic romance, which Bronte had when teaching in a girls' school...--MacRusgail (talk) 17:13, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Now you are putting ideas into my mind...Colin4C (talk) 16:44, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

There are lots of "theories" about any author... Some people say Oscar Wilde was not gay... well... Anyway, whatever Emily Bronte's sexual preferences may have been, she was a loner throughout her life. She did not even have friends. One could also say (as for example Muriel Spark suggests), E.B. just loved herself and Heathcliff is the embodiment of a very narcissistic soul.--87.162.231.127 (talk) 07:45, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

Adaptations

Does anyone have any problems with me turning the spinoffs and adaptations into its own page? It makes the entry very long without adding much substance. I think that it deserves a dedicated page that will give both the attention and focus they need. There are more than a dozen for each category. Mcoogan75 (talk) 20:42, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

moved adaptations

The adaptation sections were cluttering up the main article, so I've moved them to List of Wuthering Heights adaptations. I tried to leave a brief prose summary of the adaptations, but it could use some improvement. -- Intractable (talk) 15:21, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

I moved the references to their own page as well. Mcoogan75 (talk) 01:26, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

Awesome. The article is looking much cleaner now. -- Intractable (talk) 21:56, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

Tidied Up

This article needs to be tidied up. The plot and story needs expanding and the "Role-Playing Game Adaptation" and "In Music" parts need their own pages Cokehabit 19:56, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

I've expanded the plot and I will add some critical analysis at another point Cokehabit 17:05, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

The plot summary is currently one sentence, that is not nearly enough. What happened? Killemall22 (talk) 18:49, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

Spoilers!!

Meh... Either the table of contents needs to be edited ("Heathcliff dies") or we need to somehow shove a spoiler warning in there. Bah.

Also I found this surprising. I haven't read this but was probably planning to, and that table has ruined it all! *sobs* 81.76.55.251 22:42, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Please see WP:SW for wikipedia's guidelines on spoilersKillemall22 (talk) 19:02, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

Nice spoilers

I was looking this page up for more general background info on the book and say that "Heathcliff dies" as one of the headers, before the spoilers tag. Seriously, what the hell? Why have that spoilers tag if there are spoilers in the table of contents? Can someone fix it? I'd like to but I fear running into more spoilers. Hbdragon88 05:04, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

done. kinda... 'Part one', 'part two', and 'part three' aren't very creative headings, but there really isn't much else that isn't a spoiler. btw, please don't swear. ~Sushi 10:24, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

WP has addressed these issues, possibly after the page was changed? but if anyone else has any questions about this please see WP:SW This pretty much states that as an encyclopedia Wikipedia is a pooling of fact based resources, and that when researching information on such subjects if the article is thorough Spoilers are implied. Killemall22 (talk) 19:16, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

Modern-day marketing?

I'm not quite sure how this bit of info could fit into this article, but this EW article talks about how publishers are creating new covers for Wuthering Heights that tie in to the Twilight series to try and market the books for teens. Is this revlevent enough? If so, where would it fit? 74.95.169.158 (talk) 17:23, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

Heathcliff

Maybe this belongs on the article specifically about Heathcliff, but I think it might get less of a response there. Isn't his name actually "Heathcliff Heathcliff", not just "Heathcliff"? In Chapter 4 it says that Heathcliff is both his surname and his Christian name: "it has served him ever since, both for Christian and surname". - 12.218.12.61 04:31, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

I think that Nelly meant that it worked both as a first name and as a last name, not that it was his first and last name. The fact that he doesn't have a family name is an important aspect of his character and identity - He doesn't belong to anyone. CaptainJae 23:53, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Worried about the timeline's claim that Heathcliff was born in 1764, I have tagged it as dubious. His status as a pastless foundling surely precludes knowledge about his provenance. Crusoe (talk) 13:03, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

There are several statements about Heathcliff's age from which you can infer the year of his birth. In chapter 8, it says that "he had reached the age of sixteen" and that point in the narrative was likely 1780. Very few dates in the book are certain but most in the timeline are "probable". This would certainly be a better term than "dubious" which has negative connotations. I don't think it would be good to put "probable" after every date that is not certain. Maybe just putting "Probable timeline" or "Estimated timeline" would be best. lowenna (talk) 13:57, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

My Penguin Classics edition contains a genealogical table with exact dates of birth and death, so it's not really estimated. – (empoor) 17:42, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

I also made an exact dates of birth and death table for my website ([1]) but almost all of them were estimates and I generally used dates from the Brontes' lives. Whatever your Penguin Classics says, there are very few definite dates in the story.lowenna (talk) 11:15, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

Timeline

Readers might find the following useful (from Richard Wilcocks) :

 Time in Wuthering Heights

 1500 A Hareton Earnshaw builds Wuthering Heights
 1757 Hindley Earnshaw is born, probably Ellen Dean
 as well
 1762 Edgar Linton born
 1764 Heathcliff born
 1765 Catherine Earnshaw born
 1766 Isabella Linton born
 1771 Heathcliff is brought to Wuthering Heights by
 Mr Earnshaw (late summer)
 1773 Mrs Earnshaw dies
 1774 Hindley is sent off to college                                 NOPE, Not College
 1777 Hindley marries Frances; Mr Earnshaw dies;
 Hindley comes back (October); Catherine goes to stay
 at Thrushcross Grange (November), then returns to
 Wuthering Heights (Christmas).
 1778 Hareton is born (June); Frances dies (autumn)
 1780 Heathcliff runs away from Wuthering Heights; Mr
 and Mrs Linton both die
 1783 Catherine marries Edgar (April); Heathcliff
 comes back (September)
 1784 Heathcliff marries Isabella (January);
 Catherine dies and Cathy is born (20 March)' Hindley
 dies; Linton Heathcliff is born (September)
 1797 Isabella dies; Cathy visits Wuthering Heights
 and meets Hareton; Linton is brought to Thrushcross
 Grange and is then taken to Wuthering Heights
 1800 Cathy mets Heathcliff and sees Linton again (20
 March)
 1801 Cathy and Linton are married (August); Edgar
 dies (September); Linton dies (October); Mr Lockwood
 goes to Thrushcross Grange and visits Wuthering
 Heights, beginning his narrative
 1802 Mr Lockwood goes back to London (Janauary);
 Heathcliff dies (May); Mr Lockwood comes back to
 Thrushcross Grange
 1803 Cathy marries Hareton

 Thirty-four chapters deal with the events of nearly
 as many years. Just three dates are actually
 mentioned in the whole text (apart from the "1500"
 over the door of Wuthering Heights) but just about
 everything that takes place can be dated fairly
 accurately. "Real time" is less than a year - from
 November 1801 to September 1802.

---

I plan to remove the redirect from "Heathcliff" and make it a disambiguation. Heathcliff is also the name of a cat in a comic strip. Jay 17:35, 13 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Done. Maybe now someone can create a new article on Heathcliff the character. Jay 06:00, 10 Apr 2004 (UTC)

---

I don't think the timeline is 100% correct, because it differs from the one in spark notes, I think it should be removed completely.

1500   -  The stone above the front door of Wuthering Heights, bearing the name of Hareton Earnshaw, is inscribed, possibly to mark the completion of the house.
1758  -  Nelly is born.
~1761  -  Heathcliff and Catherine are born.
~1767  -  Mr. Earnshaw brings Heathcliff to live at Wuthering Heights.
1774  -  Mr. Earnshaw sends Hindley away to college.
1777  -  Mr. Earnshaw dies; Hindley and Frances take possession of Wuthering Heights; Catherine first visits Thrushcross Grange around Christmastime.
1778  -  Hareton is born in June; Frances dies; Hindley begins his slide into alcoholism.
1780  -  Catherine becomes engaged to Edgar Linton; Heathcliff leaves Wuthering Heights.
1783  -  Catherine and Edgar are married; Heathcliff arrives at Thrushcross Grange in September.
1784  -  Heathcliff and Isabella elope in the early part of the year; Catherine becomes ill with brain fever; young Catherine is born late in the year; Catherine dies.
1785  -  Early in the year, Isabella flees Wuthering Heights and settles in London; Linton is born.
~1785  -  Hindley dies; Heathcliff inherits Wuthering Heights.
~1797  -  Young Catherine meets Hareton and visits Wuthering Heights for the first time; Linton comes from London after Isabella dies (in late 1797 or early 1798).
1800  -  Young Catherine stages her romance with Linton in the winter.
1801  -  Early in the year, young Catherine is imprisoned by Heathcliff and forced to marry Linton; Edgar Linton dies; Linton dies; Heathcliff assumes control of Thrushcross Grange. Late in the year, Lockwood rents the Grange from Heathcliff and begins his tenancy. In a winter storm, Lockwood takes ill and begins conversing with Nelly Dean.
1801–1802  -  During the winter, Nelly narrates her story for Lockwood.
1802  -  In spring, Lockwood returns to London; Catherine and Hareton fall in love; Heathcliff dies; Lockwood returns in September and hears the end of the story from Nelly.
1803  -  On New Year’s Day, young Catherine and Hareton plan to be married.

MoondanceR (talk) 21:10, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

---

It would be nice if someone would mention Brontë's intent when writing Wuthering Heights. it would be nice to have a paragraph about Brontë's criticism of class structures and her views on love, rebirth, etc. pie4all88 00:38, 24 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Heathcliff....Hero, or villain?

what do you guys think? i would like to hear your opinions.~angrodnenharma~

While it's an interesting question, Wikipedia is not supposed to be the place for our opinions. Rather, it's intended to be a place to express the opinions of third parties through a neutral point of view. Ziggurat 03:44, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

hey ziggurat, in the neutral point of view, it states that the NPOV is used on the articles, and it says nothing about it being in the disscusion of the articles, or am i mistaken? MysteriousStranger 20:12, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

good point up there. ^^^ —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 74.130.73.249 (talk) 03:07, August 21, 2007 (UTC)

I'd vouch for Byronic hero. -Annon3 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.251.219.101 (talk) 14:04, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

I find him way too mean and vindictive to be admirable. Granted, he had a rough time growing up, but that doesn't justify everything. If a real person were to act that way, he would be considered neurotic at best. The story puts the "fun" in "dysfunctional". Afalbrig (talk) 08:32, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

I hate to be a hard ass here and break this to you, but the talk page is not for discussion on the work itself but for discussion on how to improve/expand the article.Killemall22 (talk) 19:04, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

U cant use hero to describe heathcliff coz then people will think he has a cape and mask. And he doesnt go around beating up bad guys. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.255.243.184 (talk) 21:53, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

The term hero is far far larger than that, and literary theory allows for the concept of the "antihero" who does despicable things while we empathize with him. I think "Byronic hero" has it just right.--WickerGuy (talk) 22:17, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

Plot Summary

I see a lot of old talk here about a plot summary with spoilers stc. But while i'm here i have only seen a plot summary of one sentence. I feel as though this is too short especially in comparisson to other sections of the article especially the Gothic/supernatural themes section. Would anyone like to help me expand it? I feel as thoguh such a short sentance could be merged into another section, the introduction maybe? also i think we need more sources here. Killemall22 (talk) 19:25, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

Itemporarily readded the old summary. I will try to edit it back as i feel it is too long. Also thank you to whomever removed the terrible Afu'd plot summmary that was there before. i left your intro there as well. If anyone would like to assist me the help will be greatly appreciated. Killemall22 (talk) 19:37, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

That summary is too long for me to read. Shorten it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.150.50.49 (talk) 10:21, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

I've rewritten the plot summary and trimmed it from about 1300 words to around 800. My goal was to clarify the synopsis and remove what I considered excessive detail. I've tried to maintain all the British spellings that it was originally written with but American English is what I know so if anyone sees anything, by all means correct it. It occurs to me that for people who like the longer, more detailed synopses, a link could be included for the Wuthering Heights page at Spark Notes or Cliff Notes. I'm not sure if that sort of link is considered appropriate. Dryranm (talk) 22:31, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

Since there seem to be no objections to the rewrite of the plot summary, I am going to remove the copy edit tag. Dryranm (talk) 01:55, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

Opening sentence

"Wuthering Heights is a gothic novel, and the only novel by Emily Brontë." Whether Wuthering Heights is a Gothic novel is something that needs to be discussed. The book obviously has some affinities with Gothic novels, but to place the label as the first piece of information, even before the author's name, is reductive and gives the label far too much prominence. I have removed it. I have no objection to some sensible statement of E. Bronte's use of aspects of the Gothic genre in the body of the article.Campolongo (talk) 10:26, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Recently Removed Material

Today, a great deal of material on adaptations of this novel was removed by appeal to WP:TRIVIA. But that section of the manual is overtly stated to be a style recommendation, not a content recommendation, and it states explicitly that "a selectively populated list with a relatively narrow theme is not necessarily trivia, and can be the best way to present some types of information." The removed material is a listing of major adaptations of Wuthering Heights as either a musical or opera, or resetting the story in a different milieu. In that last category, Bunuel's film which resets the story in Mexico is a widely acknowledged minor film classic by one of Spain's most famous film directors, and absolutely needs to be mentioned in this article. Similarly, Bernard Hermann's opera of WH is similarly a major adaptation which absolutely needs to be mentioned here. (Herrman is after all one of the three or four most successful film score composers in history.) If citations are required for these, they can be easily supplied. I plan to look for them, to make sure this does not get deleted again. About the only deleted material that really even begins to qualify as trivia is the existence of a Wuthering Heights role-playing game. However, even that has been reviewed in publications by "The Bronte Society". If they are appropriately cited here, then by the WP rules, it merits inclusion here.--WickerGuy (talk) 06:57, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

Section Relationships map appears to be original research

The Relationships map section appears to be original research, which is forbidden at WP by policy. Too bad, because it looks helpful. David Spector (user/talk) 20:46, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

Comparable relationships maps appear in many print editions of Wuthering Heights. It shouldn't be hard to track down a cite.--WickerGuy (talk) 21:00, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

For example [2] and bottom-of-page [3]--WickerGuy (talk) 21:04, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

It could, if necessary, be supported by various in-text citations. I would be willing to locate these if other sources don't hold up to scrutiny. The genealogy map is far too helpful to be removed from the article. MasterOfHisOwnDomain (talk) 01:00, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

Assuming that they match, and that someone adds them near the chart, these refs look good to me. David Spector (user/talk) 01:14, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Our relationship chart has lines in it indicating who likes/dislikes loves/hates whomever. This is not duplicated in any online or book relationship chart I can find although such charts are common in both the book and in studies of Wuthering Heights. This element of the chart may then actually by OR. I have restored it after Dark... deleted it with some overzealous comments. But I think since he brought that element of the chart to our attention, we should reconsider it.--WickerGuy (talk) 21:49, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

It should consist of relationships that can verifiably be proved (i.e., not open to any kind of interpretation), so: employer, brother, sister etc. and no more. MasterOfHisOwnDomain (talk) 20:12, 24 March 2012 (UTC)

Agreed. It's all family relationships, so I don't think employer enters into it. But again, the like-dislike (while probably not subject to dispute) is OR, and as such we need a new chart that doesn't include that element.--WickerGuy (talk) 00:27, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

Publication date

>> ...written between October 1845 and June 1846 and published in July of the following year [i.e. 1847]. It was not printed until December 1847... <<

How could it be published before it was printed? -- Picapica (talk) 12:20, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

Publication cirumstances

The third sentence is completely wrong: " The decision to publish came after the success of her sister Charlotte's novel, Jane Eyre." No. Wuthering Heights was doing the rounds from 1846 at the same time as Anne's Agnes Grey and Charlotte's The Professor; Anne's and Emily's books were accepted by the same publisher (Newby) in early 1847. Charlotte's first novel The Professor was rejected. Charlotte completed Jane Eyre and submitted in Aug 1847 it to a different publisher (Smith and Elder), who rushed it out - Oct 16th 1847. Emily's and Anne's novels were still awaiting publication - they came out in December 1847. So it's true that Jane Eyre was published first, but Emily's decision to publish had come much earlier and had nothing to do with Jane Eyre's success. (Dates from Gaskell's Life of Charlotte Bronte.) Michaelpeverett (talk) 16:32, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

That relationship map

is the dumbest thing I've ever seen. It's one thing to map a family tree (heck, even I kept bookmark notes for some of the family ties), but to include abstract concepts like "love" and "hate" is just silly.

- Darkhawk —Preceding undated comment added 19:25, 22 March 2012 (UTC). Am I alone in finding the illustrated family tree out of place here (not the one objected to above: the one with '18-19th-century British portraits of unknown people')? No offence to the person who took time & care to create it, but I see no reason for including pictures of a set of random individuals who share nothing with the novel's characters beyond their sex, nationality, their approximate time & perhaps in some cases their approximate class. Wouldn't a simple family tree, without pics and without the love/hate coloured lines of the other diagram, be more helpful?Costesseyboy (talk) 23:20, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Wuthering Heights

This is one of my untimate favorite book! When I read this book, the passionate love scriptures painted a scene in my mind. Giving me the benefit of understanding what Emily was trying to show us. It is a book filled with many unfolded wonders that no other book that I have read had done. Emily is and was a one of a kind author.

Now Jane Eyre is another of my all time favorite book! This book showed how love may find its way through so many troubles through lives. And through those lives you have to make very important decisions that will affect your life that you will have to live. Charlotte was showing her readers how life could be in the real world...

The Brontë sisters have done a magnificent job presenting to their readers about love and how it may turn into a disaster but you can work it out in the end...or can you? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.112.17.30 (talk) 20:52, 21 March 2007 (UTC).

The above is a prime example of WP:FORUM - there is no suggestion at all of improvement of the article. 98.67.182.137 (talk) 06:28, 4 April 2016 (UTC)

Etymology?

Is there anything anybody can tell about the etymology of the term "Wuthering Heights"? For non-native speakers this could be enlightening. The only thing I can think of is that it might be derived from "withering", probably chosen by the author to apply a common connotation. Anything else? Maybe something a little more founded by sources? --Alfe (talk) 21:30, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

It's literally provided in the first chapter of the book. "Wuthering Heights is the name of Mr. Heathcliff's dwelling, "wuthering" being a significant provincial adjective, descriptive of the atmospheric tumult to which its station is exposed in stormy weather. Pure, bracing ventilation they must have up there at all times, indeed. One may guess the power of the north wind blowing over the edge by the excessive slant of a few stunted firs at the end of the house, and by a range of gaunt thorns all stretching their limbs one way, as if craving alms of the sun." 2A02:C7D:E053:BE00:3494:8078:E95C:51AA (talk) 22:03, 6 September 2016 (UTC)

it's Gothic Jim but not as we know it

I do not recall the idea that this is a gothic novel being a peculiarly feminist idea, in fact I recall seeing in in one of those "classic" editions various publishes put out (including the idea it is in fact a re-written vampire novel).

Some sources (I will ignore the obvious Gothic references in Kate Bushes song, as it is not a study, but an adaptation).

[4]

[5]

[6]

[7]

There are many many more. So I think we need to make clear that in fact this is not just a feminist concept.Slatersteven (talk) 09:36, 20 January 2017 (UTC)

External links modified

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Rated B Class

There is insufficient discussion of themes and the gothic novel for this article to be rated B. Rwood128 (talk) 20:53, 7 June 2018 (UTC)

Does WH romanticize abusiveness?

I recently removed some highly opinionated comments that opine that WH romanticizes domestic abuse. I actually tend to agree with that assessment. As with all discussions of controversies, there's a fine line between reporting the existence of the controversy and taking sides in the controversy. To the person who posted that text, I'd like to suggest finding some scholarly studies done on the controversy and reporting on what those studies say. Also see if you can find some opposing views that deal directly with the issue.

FIRST RESEARCH, THEN CREATE. Not the other way around. Why sully the article in such a fashion. Without a single citation, it's useless. It also looks amateurish, as if someone came along and inserted a sentence from the ethers of their own mind. In parallel, I could create a section: "Possible Allegories & Symbolism of Sodomy in Wuthering Heights" and write: "Some critics claim that there are symbolic and allegoric references to sodomy in the novel".

I do agree, but how come the above has no signature or date? It does tend to clash with your general drift of being professional and responsible. (Forgive me if it was written before WP introduced signatures and dates.) Nick Barnett (talk) 14:12, 11 September 2018 (UTC)

Suggestions for a "Themes" section

I have moved this former section of the article here, in the hope that someone can create a proper section.

Author Joyce Carol Oates sees the novel as "an assured demonstration of the finite and tragically self-consuming nature of 'passion'".

• Love
• Nature versus civilization
• Revenge
• Doubling : e.g., narration (Lockwood, and Nelly Dean); households (Thrushcross Grange, and Wuthering Heights); names of characters (Catherine, and Cathy); generations (Catherine and Heathcliff; young Catherine and Hareton).
• The supernatural
• A study of social conditions near Haworth : the cure of souls.

Rwood128 (talk) 20:12, 17 September 2018 (UTC)

References

References

Excessively long plot summary

This article has one of the longest plot summaries that I know of. WP:NOVELPLOT's guideline states that summaries should be usually 400 to 700 words and should be "concise", "although very complex and lengthy novels may need a bit more." The present summary is anything but that: it currently stands at 2650 2748 words, and is getting rapidly longer by the day. I don't see any basis to exceed the 700 word guideline here, as the essential elements of the plot are no longer or more complicated than many other older novels. It's probably become long over the years simply because the book is a classic, and is well known, but those aren't good reasons for ignoring the guideline. A summary of this length is of little use to a reader who visits Wikipedia to find out what the book is about. And all it does at the moment is simply to reproduce the work under discussion, which WP:NOVELPLOT specifically says should not happen.

Would like some comments on whether it should be cut down. MichaelMaggs (talk) 10:41, 14 May 2020 (UTC)

It is far too long – 350 words for just the first three chapters – in contrast to this the York Notes guide summarises the same section with just 81 words, before giving its more detailed descriptions and analysis.

“ (1) Lockwood visiting Yorkshire pays his landlord, Heathcliff, a somewhat unwelcome visit in order to introduce himself. Introduction to Lockwood, Heathcliff, Heathcliff’s servant Joseph and a female servant. Description of the property Wuthering Heights. (2) Lockwood repeats his visit to the Heights and meets Hareton and Catherine Heathcliff. Lockwood is obliged to spend the night as a guest at the Heights owing to hostile weather conditions. (3) Lockwood sleeps in a forbidden, secret room, and encounters the ghost of Catherine, much to Heathcliff’s distress. ” — York Notes Advanced: Wuthering Heights pp.14–16 (ISBN 0 582 32925 6)

This may still be too much for a 700-word total but a reworked version of this would be sufficient for the level of detail needed here - something like:

“ In 1801, Lockwood, the new tenant at Thrushcross Grange, visits Wuthering Heights to see his landlord Heathcliff. The house and several characters are introduced including Hareton and Catherine Heathcliff who Lockwood meets on a second visit during which a blizzard forces him to stay overnight. Lockwood’s sleep is disturbed by an encounter with the ghost of Catherine (Earnshaw) much to the distress of Heathcliff. ”

If anyone needs more detail than that they can read one of the literature guides, or the original novel as I had to do. EdwardUK (talk) 13:33, 14 May 2020 (UTC)

It is very long, yes. The article is missing sections on the themes of the novel, its historical setting, how the story is told (narrative voice), and so on, which would allow the summary to be made more concise. Important details of the plot could be highlighted in a discussion with references of the themes thus revealed. That is how the better articles on novels by Charles Dickens are written, and the reference list is extensive in those articles. I assume that many literature specialists have written books and journal articles about Emily Bronte's novel; the reference list in this article is not very long as it stands. My comment leaves me in the position of being the bystander who suggests a way to improve the article but not the one with the knowledge of the literature about this novel to make a start at it. My one suggestion is to pick up three sources in the opening sections of the French Wikipedia article on Wuthering Heights, most easily reached from the link to Français on the left side of the English Wikipedia article, or here. Even that article has a flag asking for more references. --Prairieplant (talk) 21:25, 15 May 2020 (UTC)

I'll try and start on copy editing the plot summary – pruning as much as possible. And, Prairieplant, take a look at the French article. Rwood128 (talk) 14:54, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

I realise this may take some time, and several stages! Any assistance is v. welcome.Rwood128 (talk) 19:12, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

Okay, Rwood128, I will look more carefully at that the French article adds, and translation is the start. - - Prairieplant (talk) 09:17, 19 May 2020 (UTC)

Prairieplant, that's great. But I wonder if my message was ambiguous? I wasn't suggesting that you should do this, but that I would try myself! But together is even better, and MichaelMaggs are you able to help with the pruning?

Yes, I expect I can do something, though it's been a while since I read the book. Will see what I can do in the next week or so. MichaelMaggs (talk) 15:53, 19 May 2020 (UTC)

I'll put some attention on this as well, and apologize for never working on it before. It feels unwieldy on first glance, even after it already has had a major trim. This topic deserves a Wikipedia-level plot summary which smoothly presents the story and the emotional feeling of the plot in encyclopedic language. I've never read the book, just viewed the 1939 film several times, so I can't edit factually but will join in the language polish. Randy Kryn (talk) 03:16, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

Prairieplant, I'd be happy to collaborate with you on any translating. Can you suggest a section of the French article that I might work on? Rwood128 (talk) 12:29, 21 May 2020 (UTC)

MichaelMaggs. re your recent edits, I was worried that I might end up duplicating your efforts. I've only ever worked in tandem before. It's great, and unusual, to have four people working like this, but collisions may occurr! I'll try and concentrate on adding new material, and the odd copy edit, for the near future. Rwood128 (talk) 18:04, 21 May 2020 (UTC)

Sounds good. Only 250 or so words to go, and we'll be within the 700 word guideline and can concentrate on polishing. MichaelMaggs (talk) 21:34, 21 May 2020 (UTC)

Rwood128, the first section titled Le Roman and its 3 subsections seemed most interesting and worth the time. The next section is the plot, which is done chapter by chapter as is common in the French Wikipedia articles. Accurate summaries, but very long. - - Prairieplant (talk) 21:29, 21 May 2020 (UTC)

We seem to be on top of the plot, so I wouldn't bother translating that. MichaelMaggs (talk) 21:36, 21 May 2020 (UTC)

OK, I've done what I can on the plot, and it's now just short of the 700 word guideline (ignoring the image caption). Hope that's a bit better. MichaelMaggs (talk) 13:26, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

A great improvement. So now on to expanding the serious discussion of the novel. I'm working on the French article (with Google's help) but it's quite short. Rwood128 (talk) 12:27, 24 May 2020 (UTC)