Talk:World War II in Yugoslavia

The Axis Map of Yugoslavia Inaccurately Labels Independent State of Croatia As Occupied

Two tone shading of Croatia in the Axis occupation map of Yugoslation inaccurtely shows Independent State of Croatia as occupied by Italian and German forces. Independent State of Croatia was independent. The Axis occupation map of Yugoslavia puts inaccurate country labels for Serbia and Montenegro during Wolrd War II without attributes 1. German Occupied Serbia 2. Italian Protectorate of Montenegro Dalmatian coast, Istria, Montenegro and Serbia were occupied, while mainland Croatia, Bosnia and Herzegovina were solely controlled by Independent State of Croatia. The Axis powers did not occupy Independent State of Croatia as it was a minor partner in Axis, same as Ukraine and Romania who all provided troops for Axis powers on other fronts. This was not the case with Serbia and Montenegro. Albania was also independent until 1943 with the personal union with Italy providing troops for Axis powers. Serbia, Montenegro and Greece were only countries occupied during World War II. Please change back map to original correct map: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Axis_occupation_of_Yugoslavia_1941-43.png Pozoplaz (talk) 11:25, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

No. Please read some reliable sources. The so-called NDH was a Axis-occupied quasi-protectorate. Throughout its existence it was occupied by the Axis, first the Germans and Italians had a demarcation line running west-west, then the German occupied the whole “country”. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 11:50, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

Should we then label Bulgaria and Romania as occupied in this article? Or Italy? There were German forces there also? NDH had all attributes of independent state.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/14690760600963248

NDH had its own international relations (with non axis countries also like Spain or Vatican), embassies, consulates, it had its own collaboration with United Kingdom, it had its own racial theories that opposed German racial theories (targeting Serbs) and NDH insisted on them even when German officials officially disapproved. It had even national teams in various Sports. ("On 17 July 1941 HNS was admitted to FIFA as the top level federation of NDH, and the national team representing NDH played fourteen international matches in the period from 1941 to 1944.")

What attributes do we need more? 178.223.51.73 (talk) 19:04, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

Do you have sources that make clear that Croatia could make their own decisions on all fields of politics, like war and Jews? The Banner talk 19:38, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

All of the sources about Croatia in that time state that Croats waged war and genocide against Serbs on their own. Every single source. Croatia had communication lines with Allied forces. I doubt that was allowed by Germans or Italians. Croats had their own views and thus their own policy about Italian domination in Dalmatia. Pro-NDH historians in todays Croatia emphasize that Croats were in proxy war with Chetniks supported by Italians. Jewish question in Croatia is not of bigger importance then Serb question in Croatia. Serbian victims are equally important as Jewish. If Croat subordination to Germans in field of politics is enough to diminish their independence then every single axis state was not independent. All independent states even today have various level of subordination towards bigger powers. There was clear distinction between NDH and Occupied Serbia even then. NDH was treated as a winner of April War, Croats chose which territories they want to incorporate into their territory. Croat forces were used to thwart Serb uprising even in axis occupied Serbia. Some Germans threatened quisling Serbs that NDH forces will enter Serbia and do same acts of Genocide they did in NDH if Serbs continue pro-Allied politics. All of those actions show different treatment of NDH and Serbia on international level. So, every source makes clear statements that Croatia had significantly more right to make own decisions then Serbia. As a matter of fact, I am not sure in which field Occupied Serbia could make its own decisions. I am actually sure that there are no sources that claim equal treatment of axis occupied Serbia and Independent State of Croatia on international level. 178.223.51.73 (talk) 13:35, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

You seem to have linked to an article by Nada Kisić-Kolanović from 2006, but you haven't cited the part where her work would support the claims you laid out above. Please paste some of the relevant paragraphs, with page numbers. --Joy (talk) 07:32, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

Again, almost all of the above is unsupported by high quality academic sources. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 21:30, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

False claims in article about Chetniks

This article falsely claims that Chetniks were not allied force. It even has some dubious timeline in which Chetniks are added to axis forces starting from 1943. even though there are numerous evidence about Chetniks being pro-allied and fighting fascists and Nazis in 1943 and 1944. I believe that English Wikipedia is full of anti-Serbian propaganda and that this is part of it and consequence of decades of oppression of free thought in murderous communist regimes together with current numerous effort to justify ongoing oppression of Serbs in Croatia, Kosovo, Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina and to some extent in Montenegro. Chetniks are used as excuse for every wrongdoing against Serbs. We have to stop that, antifascism is important part of Chetnik ideology and Chetniks stayed loyal to allied cause even in hardest circumstances for Serbs and other Yugoslavs. Nobody has right to deny that. Please note that there are numerous proofs and even battles that Chetniks fought against axis powers after this dubious date that is highlighted in this article. If instances of Chetnik collaboration with axis forces is enough to label them as axis, we need to label communists as axis forces as there are numerous proofs of collaboration between Yugoslav communists with axis forces and even with Chetniks. Also, if Chetnik war crimes are reason to put them as axis force, then we need to take in account that communist forces conducted more crimes which resulted with even more victims. I just need to clarify this, its an ongoing statement in communist historiography, in anti-Serbian and anti-Yugoslav propaganda that comes from newly born small nations with proven history of anti-Serbian racism and anti-Serbian sentiment. I doubt its needed on Wikipedia. What kind of proofs do we need that Chetniks were not axis force in 1944? If open pitched battles are not enough, what about ideology? Which part of ideology proves that Chetnik forces were axis? So its not battles and it is not ideology? What is it? Negative sentiment about Serbs and Serbia and Yugoslavia is not enough. War crimes are not enough. Even genocide. I just thing that there are no proofs that Chetniks were axis force more then for example communists. 178.223.51.73 (talk) 12:23, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

Chetniks were royalists that favoured the restoration of absolutist monarchy, akin to fascism except without a dictator. Chetniks were not all Serbs, please stop interpreting the identification of the cjetbiks as collaborationists as somehow anti-serb. 2A00:23C8:4287:8901:C182:6CC6:AB7F:688B (talk) 00:36, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

The Chetniks have been photographed numerous times in the company of Italian and German forces as collaborators. You are being intellectually dishonest not acknowledging this. 2A00:23C8:4287:8901:C182:6CC6:AB7F:688B (talk) 00:50, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

There are multiple photos of every each of Allied army with Italians and Germans. Including photos of Tito's Communists. That is not a proof. Secondly, some of the photos are proven fakes, even some used on Wikipedia. Photo is not a proof, actions and Ideology is proof. None of the claims clearly explains that Chetnik reasons for collaborating was to prevent extermination of Serbs in Croatia, Dalmatia, Herzegovina and Bosnia. Their ideology was to protect Serbs and other Yugoslavs. Before the war they were protecting Slovenes from Italian fascists. During WW2, Serbs were threatened so any action that would preserve Serb fighting force is good one, because that fighting force prevents Ustashe to enter Serb villages and kill babies as they did actually. Ustashe were also axis force so fighting Ustashe was act of fighting axis powers. Choosing to fight Ustashe over fighting Italians was a good call to be honest. It saved lives. Also, there were two movements of Chetniks in WW2 which fought each other. There are no clear distinctions which is shown on photos. I am not dishonest, I know about Chetnik collaboration with Germans and Italians. But I also know about their collaboration with France, USA, United Kingdom, Tito's Partisans and USSR. I am not sure why is their collaboration with axis more significant as collaboration with Allies. Chetnik ideology is clearly stating Francophile and Anglophile tendencies. Chetniks opposed Italian fascists even before the war protecting Slovenes. Chetniks fought German, Hungarian and Italian invading force even before Partisans existed. Even before USA fought the Germans. So I am still not sure why are Chetniks not put as Allied force from 1943 to 1945 as they fought axis powers in that period. Thanks. 178.223.51.73 (talk) 18:18, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

They were not put as an allied force post 1943 because they collaborated and did nothing to help the allies after 1943. The allies considered them to not be allies, I'm pretty sure that's how you become an enemy.

Example source detailing this:

https://www.yadvashem.org/odot_pdf/microsoft%20word%20-%20160.pdf 2A00:23C8:4287:8901:D480:CFA2:F6B9:FEF (talk) 21:59, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

All of this is Chetnik diaspora misinformation that has been debunked in many academic textbooks for decades. If you want to be taken seriously, quote the high quality academic sources that back up your claims. Thanks, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 21:27, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

The same IP address has been used to post this weird rant claiming wide corruption in scientific community regarding Balkan contemporary politics and history, wide spread self censorship culture in academic community in fear of being labelled pro-Serbian etc. I'm afraid this has approached WP:NOTADVOCACY territory. --Joy (talk) 07:37, 10 April 2024 (UTC)