Talk:World War II casualties/Archives/2016/July

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Latest comment: 7 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

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Nazi Germany

Latest comment: 7 years ago4 comments2 people in discussion

The figures on the table below are not supported by the sources cited below. The figures cited below are estimates posted by Ernio 48. Figures not supported by reliable sources are original research.--Woogie10w (talk) 02:21, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

It is not my work. Just sayin'.Ernio48 (talk) 02:46, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

In any case these figures are OR not supported by the sources cited. --Woogie10w (talk) 02:49, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

Fine. You should consider rounding current figures and percentages to 10,000 and 0.1%; figures like 434,000 seem like you were able to tell with accuracy of 1000 people, which definitely isn't the case.

This is what the German sources are reporting 434,000, not what I am telling readers. You can verify on line the figure of 434,000 as reported by the West Germans, I included the link. We need to report the sources accurately and avoid our own OR--Woogie10w (talk) 03:08, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

This:

Third Reich

Human losses of the Third Reich in World War II (included in above figures of total war dead)

Country	Population 1939	Military deaths	Civilian deaths due to military activity and crimes against humanity	Civilian deaths due to war related famine and disease	Total deaths	Deaths as % of 1939 population
Austria	6,650,000	260,000^[1]	120,000^[2]		380,000^[1]^[2]	5.7
Germany (within 1937 borders)	69,300,000	4,400,000^[1]	1,000,000^[3]^[4]^[5]	400,000^[6] to 1,400,000^[7]	5,500,000^[8] to 6,900,000^[9]	7.9 to 10.0
Ethnic Germans from other nations	6,700,000	600,000^[1]	100,000^[6]	100,000^[6] to 800,000^[7]^[7]	700,000^[1] to 1,500,000^[10]	9.7 to 19.4
Soviet citizens in the German military	800,000^[11]	200,000^[12]			200,000	25.0
Approx. Totals	84,000,000	4,300,000^[13] to 5,500,000^[1]^[12]	1,200,000	500,000^[6] to 2,300,000^[14]	7,000,000 to 9,000,000	8.0 to 10.5

Sources for figures and details are listed in the footnotes for Germany and Austria.^[1]

Figure of 5.3 million military dead for Germany, Austria and the Ethnic Germans is taken from the study by the German military historian Rüdiger Overmans.^[1] Earlier estimates based on the wartime records compiled by the German High Command (OKW) put total military dead and missing at about 4.0 million men.^[15] However, the German Red Cross reported in 2005 that the records of the military search service Deutsche Dienststelle (WASt) list total Wehrmacht losses at 4.3 million men (3.1 million dead and 1.2 million missing) in World War II. Their figures include Austria and conscripted ethnic Germans from Eastern Europe.^[16] The estimated total of about 200,000 deaths of Soviet citizens conscripted by Germany was made by the Russian military historian Grigoriy Krivosheyev.^[12]

Civilian deaths due to military activity reported by German government sources were an estimated at about 700,000. Of those deaths, 500,000 were killed by strategic bombing, about 200,000 died in the 1945 flight and evacuations from East Europe, and during the land campaign in Germany.^[5]^[17]

The West German government put the number of Germans killed by the Nazi political, racial and religious persecution at 300,000 (including 160,000 German Jews).^[3] The German government in 2003 report by the German Federal Archive put the total murdered during the Action T4 euthanasia program at about 200,000.^[18]

Civilian deaths due to war related famine and disease occurred during 1945–46 the flight and expulsion of Germans (1944–1950) and the forced labor of Germans in the Soviet Union. The figures for expulsion losses are currently disputed^[6]^[19] German government studies have confirmed 500-600,000 deaths^[20] however, the German Red Cross maintained in 2005 that their records indicate the losses were about 2.3 million persons in expulsions.^[21]

Figure for Germany (within 1937 borders) of 5.5 million total deaths are those directly related to the war, the higher figure of 6.9 million is demographic estimate of the total population loss caused by the war.^[9]
Figures for civilian deaths of ethnic Germans from other nations are those deaths due to the flight and expulsion of Germans (1944–1950) and the forced labor of Germans in the Soviet Union. The figures for these losses are currently disputed,^[6]^[19] estimates of the total expulsion deaths of the ethnic Germans range from about 200,000 confirmed deaths^[20] to 886,000 which is a demographic estimate made in 1966 by the West German government.^[22]

...............seemed more reliable.

References

^ ^a ^b ^c ^d ^e ^f ^g Cite error: The named reference Rüdiger Overmans 2000 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
^ ^a ^b Austria facts and Figures p. 44
^ ^a ^b Germany reports. With an introduction by Konrad Adenauer. Germany (West). Presse- und Informationsamt. Wiesbaden, Distribution: F. Steiner, 1961. p. 32
^ Das Bundesarchiv Das Inventar der Quellen zur Geschichte der 'Euthanasie' – Verbrechen 1939–1945 (report available online at Bundesarchiv website)
^ ^a ^b Wirtschaft und Statistik October 1956, journal published by Statistisches Bundesamt Deutschland (German government Statistical Office)
^ ^a ^b ^c ^d ^e ^f Cite error: The named reference Herausforderung Bevölkerung pp. 267–281 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
^ ^a ^b ^c Cite error: The named reference StatBA 1958 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
^ Hubert, Michael, Deutschland im Wandel. Geschichte der deutschen Bevolkerung seit 1815 Steiner, Franz Verlag 1998 ISBN 3-515-07392-2 p. 272, The figure includes military and civilian deaths directly due to the war
^ ^a ^b Marschalck, Peter. Bevölkerungsgeschichte Deutschlands im 19. und 20. Jahrhundert, Suhrkamp 1984, A German study estimated a demographic loss of 6.9 million deaths above the pre-war level caused by the war in the 1937 borders.
^ Wirtschaft und Statistik April 1950
^ "Russian Volunteers in the German Wehrmacht in WWII-by Lt. Gen Wladyslaw Anders and Antonio Munoz". Feldgrau.com. Retrieved 2011-06-15.
^ ^a ^b ^c Cite error: The named reference I. Krivosheev. p. 278 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
^ Willi Kammerer; Anja Kammerer – Narben bleiben die Arbeit der Suchdienste – 60 Jahre nach dem Zweiten Weltkrieg Berlin Dienststelle 2005
^ Willi Kammerer; Anja Kammerer – Narben bleiben die Arbeit der Suchdienste – 60 Jahre nach dem Zweiten Weltkrieg Berlin Dienststelle 2005
^ Burkhart Müller-Hillebrand Das Heer 1933–1945. Entwicklung des organisatorischen Aufbaues. Band III. Der Zweifrontenkrieg. Das Heer vom Beginn des Feldzuges gegen die Sowjetunion bis zum Kriegsende. Mittler, Frankfurt am Main, 1969. Pages 258–266.
^ Willi Kammerer; Anja Kammerer – Narben bleiben die Arbeit der Suchdienste – 60 Jahre nach dem Zweiten Weltkrieg Berlin Dienststelle 2005 ( Published by the Search Service of the German Red Cross. The forward to the book was written by German President Horst Köhler and the German interior minister Otto Schily)
^ Statistisches Jahrbuch für die Bundesrepublik Deutschland 1960, p. 78
^ Das Bundesarchiv Das Inventar der Quellen zur Geschichte der 'Euthanasie'-Verbrechen 1939–1945 (report available online at Bundesarchiv website)
^ ^a ^b Rüdiger Overmans, Personelle Verluste der deutschen Bevölkerung durch Flucht und Vertreibung. (A parallel summary in Polish was also included, this paper was a presentation at an academic conference in Warsaw, Poland in 1994), Dzieje Najnowsze Rocznik XXI – 1994
^ ^a ^b Cite error: The named reference German Federal Archive 1948 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
^ Willi Kammerer; Anja Kammerer – Narben bleiben die Arbeit der Suchdienste – 60 Jahre nach dem Zweiten Weltkrieg Berlin Dienststelle 2005 ( Published by the Search Service of the German Red Cross. The forward to the book was written by German President Horst Köhler and the German interior minister Otto Schily)
^ Alfred de Zayas A terrible Revenge. Palgrave/Macmillan, New York, 1994. p. 152.

[Rüdiger_Overmans_2000-1] ^ ^a ^b ^c ^d ^e ^f ^g Cite error: The named reference Rüdiger Overmans 2000 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).

[Austria_facts_and_Figures_Page_44-2] Austria facts and Figures p. 44

[Konrad_Adenauer_1961._Page_32-3] Germany reports. With an introduction by Konrad Adenauer. Germany (West). Presse- und Informationsamt. Wiesbaden, Distribution: F. Steiner, 1961. p. 32

[4] Das Bundesarchiv Das Inventar der Quellen zur Geschichte der 'Euthanasie' – Verbrechen 1939–1945 (report available online at Bundesarchiv website)

[Statistik'_1956-5] Wirtschaft und Statistik October 1956, journal published by Statistisches Bundesamt Deutschland (German government Statistical Office)

[Herausforderung_Bevölkerung_pp._267–281-6] ^ ^a ^b ^c ^d ^e ^f Cite error: The named reference Herausforderung Bevölkerung pp. 267–281 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).

[StatBA_1958-7] Cite error: The named reference StatBA 1958 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).

[8] Hubert, Michael, Deutschland im Wandel. Geschichte der deutschen Bevolkerung seit 1815 Steiner, Franz Verlag 1998 ISBN 3-515-07392-2 p. 272, The figure includes military and civilian deaths directly due to the war

[Marschalck,_Peter_1984-9] Marschalck, Peter. Bevölkerungsgeschichte Deutschlands im 19. und 20. Jahrhundert, Suhrkamp 1984, A German study estimated a demographic loss of 6.9 million deaths above the pre-war level caused by the war in the 1937 borders.

[10] Wirtschaft und Statistik April 1950

[Feldgrau.com-11] "Russian Volunteers in the German Wehrmacht in WWII-by Lt. Gen Wladyslaw Anders and Antonio Munoz". Feldgrau.com. Retrieved 2011-06-15.

[I._Krivosheev._p._278-12] Cite error: The named reference I. Krivosheev. p. 278 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).

[13] Willi Kammerer; Anja Kammerer – Narben bleiben die Arbeit der Suchdienste – 60 Jahre nach dem Zweiten Weltkrieg Berlin Dienststelle 2005

[14] Willi Kammerer; Anja Kammerer – Narben bleiben die Arbeit der Suchdienste – 60 Jahre nach dem Zweiten Weltkrieg Berlin Dienststelle 2005

[15] Burkhart Müller-Hillebrand Das Heer 1933–1945. Entwicklung des organisatorischen Aufbaues. Band III. Der Zweifrontenkrieg. Das Heer vom Beginn des Feldzuges gegen die Sowjetunion bis zum Kriegsende. Mittler, Frankfurt am Main, 1969. Pages 258–266.

[16] Willi Kammerer; Anja Kammerer – Narben bleiben die Arbeit der Suchdienste – 60 Jahre nach dem Zweiten Weltkrieg Berlin Dienststelle 2005 ( Published by the Search Service of the German Red Cross. The forward to the book was written by German President Horst Köhler and the German interior minister Otto Schily)

[17] Statistisches Jahrbuch für die Bundesrepublik Deutschland 1960, p. 78

[18] Das Bundesarchiv Das Inventar der Quellen zur Geschichte der 'Euthanasie'-Verbrechen 1939–1945 (report available online at Bundesarchiv website)

[Rüdiger_Overmans_1994-19] Rüdiger Overmans, Personelle Verluste der deutschen Bevölkerung durch Flucht und Vertreibung. (A parallel summary in Polish was also included, this paper was a presentation at an academic conference in Warsaw, Poland in 1994), Dzieje Najnowsze Rocznik XXI – 1994

[German_Federal_Archive_1948-20] Cite error: The named reference German Federal Archive 1948 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).

[21] Willi Kammerer; Anja Kammerer – Narben bleiben die Arbeit der Suchdienste – 60 Jahre nach dem Zweiten Weltkrieg Berlin Dienststelle 2005 ( Published by the Search Service of the German Red Cross. The forward to the book was written by German President Horst Köhler and the German interior minister Otto Schily)

[Revenge_1994._Page_152-22] Alfred de Zayas A terrible Revenge. Palgrave/Macmillan, New York, 1994. p. 152.

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