Talk:Women in the workforce/Archive 1

Talk page archive (2007-present)

drafting

Tagged 6 minutes after posting a first draft; how efficient. This article is needed to explain the existence of the category and why women's participation in particular occupations is an individual field of study. See, e.g, Women's writing in English and the lengthy deletion discussions and deletion reviews on that topic and category. More importantly, this is a well-studied field in academia and a major area of law, and so is an important encyclopedic topic that wikipedia is presently missing. I'll be working on the article and cites are needed (and will be provided). It also needs to be posted to relevant wikiprojects. --Lquilter (talk) 14:54, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Your first reason is a completely wrong reason to create an article (an article as justification for a category?). As for the second: this "well studied field", doesn't it have a name? Gender studies? Something similar? The subject of the article as it stands now seems like a mixture of three distinct related subjects into one new synthesis, which is original resaarch in the Wikipedia sense. Fram (talk) 15:04, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

A few comments below:

1. Your first reason is a completely wrong reason to create an article (an article as justification for a category?). The article is justified on its own as a well-studied topic. I am creating it now, as opposed to, say, waiting for some other editor to create it, because head articles are needed for categories that are intersections per WP:CATGRS. Or rather, the ability to write a head article justifies these categories; however, many of them do not currently have head articles, so I am planning to create (cited & referenced) stubs for them. To get more background on this issue you might try reading various WP:CFDs on the relevant categories; Category:Female models is the most recent one.
2. As for the second: this "well studied field", doesn't it have a name? Gender studies? Something similar? Yes. "Women's history", "women's studies", "gender studies" are all well-studied fields, of which occupational studies are a significant part. Article topics can certainly span multiple subjects without being original research, of course, as I'm sure you understand -- that is in fact the whole point of interdisciplinary studies like women's studies. The history of women (and gendering more broadly) within occupations is a well-studied topic in women's studies and the gendering of such occupations is another take on the same topic within gender studies, two significantly overlapping fields (with different approaches) within social sciences. Women's history is of course a subdiscipline of both women's studies and gender studies (and history) so it's natural that a topic would span multiple topics. However, if you have a better idea for the title of the article it would be great to hear it.

I trust you will help to improve the article, and that that was the intent behind tagging it -- to encourage other editors to add more citations to it. --Lquilter (talk) 16:12, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Studies can span multiple fields, and articles can then be made about these studies. Articles should not on their own span multiple subjects though, as thta, again, would be original research. I hope that you, as the creator of this article, would improve it, so that the worries of me, the tagger, are shown to be unneeded. For the moment, I still fail to see how one article will come out of the three topics from the title. This may well be due to some lack of knowledge on my part, but then it is the role of the article to be clear for people who don't already know the subject. Fram (talk) 16:17, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

What are the "three topics" you see here? Perhaps your confusion can be remedied with a better article heading. What about "Gender and women's history in occupations? --Lquilter (talk) 16:23, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

• I think "Women and gender role division in the workforce" may be a better title and moved it; what do you think? --Lquilter (talk) 18:05, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
  • While it is at least more focused, and clearer on the potential subject of the article, I still fail to see what exactly this is supposed to be. I don't have the impression that you had any idea what you were going to write when you started the article (I am not suggesting that you don't know the general subjects, but that the focus of the article, what would be included and what not, was undefined). Like you now say, there are tons of potential subjects in gender studies, the history of employment of women, the discrimination of women, etcetera. The long list of books illustrates this, but is not the way to write an article (they don't learn anything, the list of titles doesn't summarize anything). I'll remove the OR template, as the new title is at least more promising of a potential article, but I don't think that at the moment, a casual reader will get anything out of it.Fram (talk) 20:32, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

That's why I put a {{stub}} template on it to start. Frankly, I don't think that one can judge an editor's intent six minutes after an article was posted. That's why **I** take a somewhat humble & cautious approach to tagging articles in fields about which I know very little. Every editor has her own approach, of course. --Lquilter (talk) 22:02, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

To me , a stub indicates that the article has only the basic info and needs lot of additional info to make it a complete start (not a GA or FA, that's again something completely different). This article, on the other hand, did not contain (for me) the basic info to indicate what it was about at all. I see many new articles, and in almost all cases, I can judge the "editor's intent" or at least the subject of the article in the first draft. That is why this was the first article ever that I put the OR template on. Fram (talk) 11:45, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

I see. I'm sorry to have been unclear. The other articles envisioned ("women in medicine", "women in the legal professions", etc.) have much more obvious titles. ... As I'm thinking about it, I wonder if "women in the workforce" is the simplest possible title for this one. What do you think? ... Also, are there stub models you can suggest that will make these other articles clear? --Lquilter (talk) 13:50, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

From what you have done on this article so far, I guess "women in the workforce" may be a good title (or a bit broader, "gender role division in the workforce", looking at both sides). As for stub models... Imagine that the following article only had its first sentence (a mini-stub, really): Minors and abortion. It would not be a good article, of course, but at least the subject would have been clear at first glance. If we compare this with the original (unfinished) version of this article, the third part of the original tiotle (women's history) only is mentioned in the very last sentence, and even then it is unclear (to me) how it should be closely linked to the rest of the subject (it is of course usual to include a historical overview of a subject in an article, but to specifically mention it in the title gives a completely different focus). I hope this helps a bit. Fram (talk) 14:02, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

• Changed the title per discussion. Also, see Women in the medical professions; how do you feel about that as a stub? --Lquilter (talk) 22:46, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Much better. This is the kind of stub which I would never mark as "original research". A clear, well-defined subtopîc of women's history (or gender studeis or whatever other name), about which a lot can be said from reliable sources. Fram (talk) 08:23, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Deletion discussion for related, duplicate article

Recently a duplicate page, Women in the Workforce was created that seems redundant to this article, Women in the workforce. An AfD discussion is being held here: View AfD. AnandaBliss (talk) 21:51, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 27 August 2018 and 7 December 2018. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Ocru2.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 13:08, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 16 January 2019 and 10 May 2019. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Iosundare.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 13:08, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 26 October 2021 and 15 December 2021. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Tracy zhang322.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 13:08, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 24 August 2021 and 11 December 2021. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Andrea Tehedy.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 13:08, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Bad stats

I've removed this:

The Girls Global Education Fund estimates that this situation actually worsened over the last half of the twentieth century, finding that in 1950 there were 38 million more boys than girls enrolled in secondary education, but by 1998 there were 82 million more boys than girls.<ref>Factsheet: The Status of Women and Girls, Girls Global Education Fund, referencing New York Times Oct. 1998.</ref>

because it's bad statistical work. Yes: the number of excess males enrolled has about doubled. However, the world's population more than doubled during that time, so what this means is that the situation has actually stayed the same. WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:01, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

• Sorry for the tardy response. Two points: (1) I'm not putting the statistic back in, but it may also have been poorly phrased. For instance, "worsened" might mean simply by sheer numbers, rather than by percentage; the phrasing suggests percentage is more appropriate, but that might have been in-apt phrasing on the part of the wikipedia editor, not the GGEF. (2) Analyzing the merits of the research is obviously original research. Ahem. --Lquilter 12:43, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

Focus is on developed countries, too "Global North"

The focus is definitely on working women in developed economies, that is, the United States and to a lesser degree Western Europe. Alas, that's a small fraction of the world's working women (despite the dollars earned). Some decent info on the rest of the globe would be appropriate. I'll try to add more info on women earning a living outside of the Western economies, would love to see others add information too. OttawaAC (talk) 04:15, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

Is it true....

that in the USA the graduation rate of women is higher (@60%) than men....? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.91.225.75 (talk) 03:38, 1 September 2012 (UTC)

It is higher, yes. —Panamitsu (talk) 01:56, 2 November 2023 (UTC)