Talk:Women in Anglo-Saxon society

Multiple issues

This is a very poor article. Women in Anglo-Saxon England is listed three times in the bibliography with different dates, although only one is cited. The authorship is unclear. Some listings show a single author and others three. See [1] and [2] The very odd New Reading in Women in Old in the bibliography is really New Readings on Women in Old English Literature.

The article states that discussion of the role of women in AS society started in the 1980s, but this appears to be based a misunderstanding of the dates of some of the sources. Comments by Stenton and Richards et al are dated 1990, but this is just the date that their essays were re-published in the (misleadingly titled) New Readings. Stenton died in 1967 and the essay was originally published in 1943. It is also strange that the leading historian on the subject, Pauline Stafford, is omitted from the sources. Dudley Miles (talk) 19:27, 17 June 2023 (UTC)

This article is just a synopsis of Fell's book. I've read it, and it's great, but this article doesn't read as an encyclopedia entry so much as a synopsis with interesting tidbits. Trashbird1240 (talk) 16:24, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

@Dudley Miles and Medievalfran: There are too many unrelated details--and I find the article a bit confusing to read. I recommend starting over with a format similar to Women in Medieval Scotland. Any thoughts on re-writing the entire article? yes/no? MauraWen (talk) 03:36, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

I did not get the ping and I have just seen your comment. I agree that the article needs re-writing and using the Scottish format is one option, but I prefer writing the article and then seeing what format works with the content. The use of sources is unsatisfactory, particularly the lack of page numbers in many refs. Ide is self-published and not a reliable source. Doris Stenton is mentioned in the lead, but she is an expert on the later Middle Ages. Stafford is mentioned but not cited, as I commented above. I am less knowledgeable on the early Anglo-Saxon period, but the very few powerful women in the later period probably needs more emphasis. Stafford shows that women had a higher status in the later period in Mercia than Wessex, but this is not covered at all. There is a good bibliography below. If you are happy to have a go at rewriting then do go ahead. Dudley Miles (talk) 10:16, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

I didn't get the ping either -- but excellent suggestions, hoping to start drafting something in the coming months. But it'll be a slow one! Thank you for anyone adding suggestions below / here. Medievalfran (talk) 09:25, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

Masculine versus feminine

The idea that women weren't "cooks" because coc is a masculine-form word is supremely weak. Gender in Old English rarely conforms to expectations of natural gender as it sometimes does in Romance languages. A teacher may be addressed in Spanish as Profesor and his female counterpart Profesora; this is not how things work in Old English. If a male fisherman is fiscer, a female fisher-person is not fiscere. In fact, there is no single feminine ending, and fiscere is masculine, despite other words in other declensions ending in -e as a feminine suffix. A person who catches fish would be fiscere in nominative case whether male or female.

Words also changed gender from Proto-Germanic on their way to Old English. You cannot base judgments on occupations based on language like this. If Christine Fell has a compelling argument for this, then that entire argument needs to be in the article, not just a simple statement of the gender of one word. Trashbird1240 (talk) 15:58, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

Some suggestions

Building a bibliography here for me / someone else to come back to! Please feel free to add more... Medievalfran (talk) 09:20, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

• Pauline Stafford, The King’s Wife in Wessex 800-1066 – Past & Present (91, May, 1981, pp. 3-27)
• Pauline Stafford, ‘‘The Annals of Aethelflaed’: Annals, History and Politics in Early Tenth-Century England’ in Myth, Rulership, Church and Charters by Julia Barrow and Andrew Wareham (Eds.)
• Kathleen Herbert, Peace-Weavers and Shield-Maidens: Women in Early English Society
• Mary Dockray-Miller, Motherhood and Mothering in Anglo-Saxon England
• Henrietta Leyser, Medieval Women: A Social History of Women in England, 450-1500 Medievalfran (talk) 09:20, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
• Barbara Kanner, The Women of England From Anglo-Saxon Times to the Present : Interpretive Bibliographical Essays, 1979
• Clare Lees, ‎Gillian Overing, Double Agents: Women and Clerical Culture in Anglo-Saxon England, 2009
• Jane Crawford, The Position of Women in Anglo-Saxon England, 1959 - for a section on history of study of women.
• Doris Stenton, The English Woman in History, 1957 - for a section on history of study of women.
• Kathryn Maude, Addressing Women in Early Medieval Religious Texts (2021)
• Katie Buygis, The Care of Nuns: The Ministries of Benedictine Women in England During the Central Middle Ages
• Sarah Foot, Veiled Women, 2 vols
• Stephanie Hollis ed., Writing the Wilton Women
• Pauline Stafford, Queen Emma & Queen Edith: Queenship and Women's Power in Eleventh-Century England
• Pauline Stafford, Queens, Concubines and Dowagers
• M. Clunies Ross, "Concubinage in Anglo-Saxon England", Past and Present, 108, 1985
• Pauline Stafford, "Queens, Nunneries and Reforming Churchmen", Past and Present, 1999
• Diane Watt, many books and articles!

• lots of resources to explore via Feminae database https://inpress.lib.uiowa.edu/feminae/Default.aspx

Above presumably by USer:Medievalfran, for which thanks.

All the best: Rich Farmbrough 12:22, 3 June 2024 (UTC).