Talk:Winchester College/Archive 1

Criticism of the School

New comment by Slugfilm, February 2011:

• I think a new approach is called for with regard to negative information on the school.
• There appear to be three main criticisms that keep resurfacing: abuse/bullying, drugs/alcohol and financial crimes.
• I would like to pose two key questions: (i) how best should such critical points be addressed, and (ii) do mere allegations merit inclusion?
• Please add your thoughts below and i will undertake an edit once we have enough feedback.

I don't think the fact that the son of a previous headmaster was expelled from the school for drugs-related offences really merits mention, especially mis-spelled mention (perhaps I should have written "menshun") in an article about the school. Last time I checked, wikipedia was not a gossip collumn. If you disagree, feel free to flame me / put things right. Gingekerr 10:16, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I agree wholeheartedly that the chap's expulsion is meaningless. I'm afraid, however, that there are those on Wikipedia who have substantive malice against, say, the aristocracy, etc., and feel it necessary to rake up whatever dirt they can and plaster it on Wikipedia, instead of following old encyclopaedic and Dictionary of National Biography yardsticks, which tend to exclude, as you rightly put it, "meaningless" comments. You might like to have a look at the entry for the late Lord Nicholas Hervey and some of the sneering comments made on the talk page. Sussexman 18:13, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Spelling

I've just (five years later) removed mentions of "Kennaez" and "Kennaze" prior to looking at this discussion page. I'd suggest that the Wikipedia entry for Win Coll should concentrate the more unchanging aspects of the school as well as news, and pay less attention to recent coinages. No doubt there are many neologisms that could be included. However, this article and its edits are (I imagine) intended for a wide audience, and not merely to amuse a small circle. --Mediaczar (talk) 13:57, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

I have heard that Winchester students were formerly known as "Wicamists" - how common is this usage today? Mmartins 15:47, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Winchester students are still known as Wykehamists, and old boys as Old Wykehamists.

"You can tell a Wykehamist, because you can't tell him anything." Gingekerr 13:58, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I have never seen the spelling "Wicamist" as a noun. However, the adjective "Wykehamical" is sometimes spelt "Wiccamical", and "Wiccamica" means antiquities, documents and other information connected with the school.

I think you'll find that Parson Woodforde (1740-1803), a College man, uses the word "Wiccamist" in his diaries. Millbanks (talk) 09:33, 7 June 2008 (UTC) To take one example, on 23 August 1795, he meets a Mr Ford, a clergyman, who "is a Wiccamist". Millbanks (talk) 16:08, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Sirmylesnagopaleentheda, are you sure about the Wintoniensem -> Wintoniam bit? If you're right I'm surprised that the other version went uncontested for so long. I was pretty sure that Wintoniensem was the correct version (if it is wrong, it's someone else's mistake, as I heard people using that version when I was at school), though I'm not a Latin or medieval scholar. Do you have a source? --Holmoak 23:43, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

I am quite certain. In medieval Latin, "Wintonia" means "Winchester", and "Wintoniensis" is an adjective meaning "of Winchester". "Prope Wintoniensem" would therefore be grammatical nonsense. The formal name of the college, as found in the original statutes, is "Collegium Beatae Virginis Mariae Wintoniae, Anglice Seynt Marie College Winchester"; and if you were making a deed of covenant or a will in favour of the College today, the form would be "the Warden and Scholars of Saint Mary College Winchester, commonly known as Winchester College". Later sources sometimes add "prope Wintoniam" to distinguish it from "Collegium BVM Wintoniae in Oxonia", alias New College. The confusion arises because the name was usually given in abbreviation: "Coll: BVM Winton: prope Winton:". ("Collegium Sanctae Mariae Wintoniensis", without the "prope", would also be grammatically acceptable: I shall check whether it occurs, for example in the title of the Mathews poem.) With your permission, I shall therefore correct it back again.--Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) 15:11, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

My Latin is now very sketchy, but I did ask half a dozen people who'd been to the school to ask if they had any faults with it, and they didn't. However, I bow to your superior knowledge. Thanks for correcting it. --Holmoak 18:40, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Most Famous Schools?

"Winchester is often mentioned alongside Harrow School and Eton College as one of Britain's three most famous public schools." Ok fame is perhaps subjective and I'm not sure what evidence could be gathered for this purpose, but I would think I am right in saying that Rugby school should be in here, and I wouldn't be surprised if its fame is not greater than that of Winchester, primarily because of the varoius football codes (two keeping its name) that evolved from its sporting traditions.

Absolutely true. There is no point to this sentence. There are a number of famous public schools in Britain. To say that any is more famous than any other is simple POV pushing. Only Eton could probably get away with it, but it's unnecessary even when describing Eton. -- Necrothesp 09:37, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

For what it's worth, I think that in "Establishment" circles people might be more inclined now to say, "Eton and Winchester" rather than "Eton and Harrow", but that was not the case until fairly recently, and I imagine that more people would have heard of Harrow than Winchester. Rugby has the advantage of Tom Brown's Schooldays, and of having invented a major sport.

I can remember a newly arrived Australian telling me that as far as he was concerned there were "only two public schools and they were Eton and Harrow and (he) couldn't care a piss about the others". Speaks volumes for perception, doesn't it? Millbanks (talk) 08:23, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Volumes? Indeed: litres, at least. It also speaks gallons for Australians, would you not agree? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.179.117.227 (talk) 15:33, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

I've heard that Lord Peter Wimsey (Eton and Balliol) once made derogatory remarks about Winchester. Did he, and if so, what did he say?Bill Tegner 22:13, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

When asked what he meant by a public school, he answered: "Eton. Oh, and Harrow. And if you're not too particular, there's some little place in Winchester." The other person said "I once met a man who'd been to Marlborough", and Wimsey answered "I'm sorry to hear that". I forget which book this comes in. --Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) 09:58, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

It's in Murder Must Advertise, p.142. The exact words are "And I've heard that there's a decentish sort of place at Winchester, if you're not too particular." When someone mentioned Rugby, he said "No, no: that's a railway junction." --62.25.109.195 15:23, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Prefectorial system

Has the College officer system been changed recently to eliminate one of the Cap: Praes and introduce another office instead? This was not the case when I left in 2002, but a recent short roll suggested that it might have been. (I don't have it to hand, otherwise I'd have more information). In that case, the article should be updated to reflect it. If that is not the case, I am probably remembering incorrectly. --Holmoak 18:13, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

---

The article states:

"There are then a number of Co: Praes (Commensalibus Praefecti, Commoner Prefects) with authority throughout the school (except, formerly, over Collegemen)."

Should it be: 'except, formally, over Collegemen?' Otherwise, formerly to what? When I was at Winchester (until 2002) I was under the impression that the rule still stood, at least notionally (=~ formally). --Holmoak 18:13, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Very difficult one. Obviously a Co: Prae: cannot march into College and start throwing his weight about: the question is whether he can discipline a Collegeman found transgressing elsewhere on the school premises.

Your understanding (that he cannot) is certainly the traditional one. However, I have a feeling that, if it came to a constitutional crisis, any Headmaster would take the view that, when push comes to shove, College is just another house and a Co: Prae: is a school prefect as opposed to a house prefect, end of argument.

The original basis of the rule is that Commoners were not part of the foundation at all, but a private commercial venture of the Headmaster; thus, from the point of view of College, their existence could be ignored. This certainly cannot be maintained after the reforms consequent upon the Public Schools Act 1868.

In my time, the justification was a little different. College fell within the jurisdiction of the Second Master, and the Headmaster had no right to interfere in its internal affairs. (Again, this understanding was not uncontested, and there was a running battle between the Headmaster and the Second Master, each Second Master warning his successor: "Whatever you do, don't let the Headmaster into College!") College prefects were appointed by the Second Master by authority of the Warden. Co: Praes were appointed by the Headmaster by his own authority. Ergo, Co: Praes had no jurisdiction over any Collegeman. Again, I question whether this can survive the separation of the office of Master in College from that of Second Master. If the rule survives at all, it can only be on the reasoning that, while the Headmaster has the power to interfere in College to the extent of giving Co: Praes jurisdiction over Collegemen, he has not so far exercised it.

The parallel question is that of the College Co: Praes. It was certainly once thought that all prefects in full power had jurisdiction over Commoners; but Dr. Ridding laid down that this is only the case where the prefect acts officially, that is in the capacity of an Officer or Bible Clerk. (The Bible Clerk was appointed weekly to read the lesson in Chapel and to keep order in School.) However, if this were still the case the distinction between College Co: Praes and other College prefects would be meaningless, as there is no longer any post of Bible Clerk (though in my time the Co: Praes still took it in turns to take Preces: do they still?). There was once a time when prefects in half power only had authority in their own chambers, as shown in their appointment formula "praeficio te in sociis tuis concameralibus", but this is long obsolete. In my time there was usually only one College Co: Prae: (very occasionally two), and he was always Coll: Lib: Prae:. Since Coll: Lib: Prae: was made an Officer, are there still any College Co: Praes (apart from the Officers), or has the custom of appointing them lapsed?

I have not been in Winchester recently enough to be able to comment on whether there are still two Cap: Praes. I would be interested to read anyone else's comments on this.

Reverting to the question of Co: Praes and Collegemen, I shall tweak the article to use some adverb such as "traditionally".

On an entirely different topic: might it not be better to describe the sweat and writers systems as they now exist, and then say that they date from the 1970s or earlier, rather than the other way round? --Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) 12:19, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

I have revised the whole section, and tried to make it clear what applies only to College and what applies to the rest of the school. When I was in College every member of the sen: roll was a College prefect, with authority over junior collegemen. There were three different levels:

• six officers (Aul:, Bib:, Schol:, Sen: & Jun: Cap:, and Coll: Lib: Praes),

• six officers' prefects (one chosen by each officer to be a "second in command" in his chamber for the year), and

• two or three further non-officered prefects (sometimes known as jemimas) who did not have a fixed officer, numbers depending on the size of the roll.

All prefects (i.e. everyone in the top year) took turns doing things like taking toytime, nursing and reading at Preces. The officers met with the Master-in-College weekly to discuss internal College affairs. Some had specific duties outside College (the Aulae Prae:, the Cap: Praes) but I don't think they were in the habit of exerting authority over commoners. I am not sure what the notional power of an officer is these days.

No-one in College was ever called a Co: Prae: -- that was reserved for the heads of houses of Commoner houses. No-one below the top year was ever a prefect. I think the only change since 2002 is that the Jun: Cap: Prae: has apparently been replaced by Ollae Prae:.

I expect the article could do with further rationalisation. I am sorry if I've trodden on anyone's toes!

--Holmoak 14:11, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

The entire premise that any of the various kinds of prefect exercise any authority over anyone was, during my time at least (A, 1994-1999), total bollocks anyway; they might have had notional power, but they certainly never used it. I'd be astonished if it has changed since then. The only thing we ever cared about was what prefects within the house did or didn't want; the same (as far as I can tell) was true of collegemen; the heirarchy within each house mattered, but official wincoll-wide titles didn't. Within A, everyone in the top year (unless busted down as punishment for some transgression of the rules), had to perform such duties as supervising toytime and confiscating alcohol; I presume other houses were similar. As an aside, X was used on a hell of a lot more than laundry; its use was really quite routine, by both collegemen and commoners alike. Pissed off certain traditionalists, of course, but fuck 'em. DrPizza 16:22, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

We were told that there was an obsolete position of Tinea Prae, the senior non-officer prefect, who was responsible for checking that noone had developed tinea over the hols. Incidentally, why aren't there any pictures of college men in gowns ? I was trying to demonstrate the reality of Harry Potter to an innocent American the other day, and couldn't find anything.

When I was in College (mid-80s) the Aulae Prae and usually one other Officer ranked as Co Praes (I did once witness the "other" - I'd best not name him - officiously telling some kid "I'm a Co Prae" as he told him off in Flint Court). The Aulae Prae also used to give the address Ad Portas (ie. receiving distinguished OW visitors like Willie Whitelaw) and read out the school roll at Morning Hills. Officers got to wear a black velvet stripe on the edge of their gowns, the Aulae Prae a coloured one (usually, but not always, red). Also at that time the College Tutor (the late J.H.Durran) was listed on the school roll on the list of housemasters (this may have been just honorary - don't know if he actually attended housemasters' meetings), the Second Master being of course housemaster of College at that time (for real - that certainly wasn't a legal fiction). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 171.192.0.10 (talk) 13:57, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

End of November edits

I'm afraid I've reverted everything back to 23 November 2006 as there have been a lot of useless edits since then.

Firstly, Tai Kit, Winchester is both a public school and an independent school. It is more commonly (within the UK, at least) classed as a public school, so I don't think this needs to be changed.

Secondly, 81.138.2.87 goes well beyond the boundaries of accuracy and good taste.

I do not believe that there is a Fo: Prae:, and I am sure he is not an officer, so I am inclined to doubt anything that 81.105.181.61 says.

I have restored 69.137.169.43's addition.

--Holmoak 15:35, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Ah, Tai Kit, my mistake -- the Independent School and Public School articles are one and the same. I have re-updated the article to link to Independent school (UK).

--Holmoak 15:35, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Fo Prae was once a title jocularly given to the junior prefect in Second Chamber. However, the Prefect of Hall's Book records a decision of the Second Master to abolish this post and give the Prefect of Hall responsibility for all matters in re foricarum.

If it is true that the newly revived Ollae Prae is in charge of computers, it is worth saying, however much rubbish appeared in the other edits by the same author.--Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) 17:59, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

There's been far too much rubbish from 81.138.2.87, and if it were an individual it should be banned from editing. Unfortunately it is the whole current Win Coll user community! What shall we do? ---Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) 19:39, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

How do you know it is not an individual? The IP address is for a single, dynamic IP broadband connection (host81-138-2-87.in-addr.btopenworld.com), which suggests an individual or at most a connection shared between three or four people. Most of his/her contributions (almost all vandalism) are non-Wykehamical and many are for entirely different schools. If s/he had anything useful to contribute s/he could always sign up for a proper account. --Holmoak 23:18, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, I meant 81.105.181.61. The talk page for that user has a warning beginning "This IP address, 81.105.181.61, is registered to Winchester College and may be shared by multiple users". This is corroborated by the fact that some of the edits from this source are rubbish and others are quite sensible. I don't know who 81.138.2.87 is, though he/she is equally guilty of contributing rubbish. --Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) 11:25, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Winchester used to have a leased line and fixed IP addresses in the range 212.219.8.160 - 212.219.8.191 (and still does according to the whois database). However, it looks like 81.105.181.0 - 81.105.181.63 also belong to the college now. Would the solution not be to block anonymous users only? Those students who wish to use Wikipedia seriously can still do so by registering an account. An alternative would be to email the computing department at Win: Coll: to complain, but I suspect that it would not be productive; they might well end up banning this site altogether.

--Holmoak 14:45, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Let's wait and see. If there is a lot more rubbish, perhaps we should go with your suggestion of blocking anonymous users. How does one set about this? --Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) 10:10, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

You need to be a Wikipedia administrator. See WP:BP (Blocking Policy). As far as I can tell, the way to get an administrator's attention is to post on WP:AIV (Administrator intervention against vandalism). --Holmoak 02:20, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Notions

Why is it that information under the title 'Notions' is so out dated. Surely people who go to Winchester should update this by writing about current trends in notions, especially considering it is such a big part of life at wincoll. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.151.255.146 (talk) 00:53, 14 December 2006 (UTC).

This is already addressed in the "Notions" article. Here we need nothing more than the briefest sketch. (In any case the old notions are far funnier and more interesting!) --Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) 10:43, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Old Wykehamists

Please could someone add: Douglas Jay, Peter Jay, Hubert Doggart, Nicholas Monsarrat and Antony Beevor. I'd do it myself, but I don't have their dates handy.Bill Tegner 22:10, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

I've added Paul Bergne, the intelligence officer, linguist and diplomat, who died in 2007. See the Times obituary. Well worth creating a WP article on this impressive OW—which is why I've added a proleptic link to encourage someone to do so ... --NigelG (or Ndsg) | Talk 13:03, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

PS And what about Giles Radice, who as it happens was a friend of Bergne's? (I think he wrote an obit in the Grauniad.) --NigelG (or Ndsg) | Talk 13:15, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

PPS Yes, he did write a short obit. --NigelG (or Ndsg) | Talk 16:17, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

 Done Radice now added. --NigelG (or Ndsg) | Talk 20:55, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

 Done Both Jays, Beevor & Monsarrat added.

A couple of points:

• Someone should check that all the OWs are indeed correctly listed by date of birth, not entry to the school. Most of them are probably OK, but Richard Noble was listed under 1964 rather than the correct 1946.
• Make sure that all OWs with WP entries have Category:Old Wykehamists at the foot of their pages. Clicking on this category provides a handy list of notable OWs in alphabetical order. --NigelG (or Ndsg) | Talk 12:08, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

I have now developed a prototype sortable list. Please see my comments on the OW Talk page. --NigelG (or Ndsg) | Talk 22:19, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Dulce Domum (Winchester College Song)

This article was considered at afd and the result was merge into this article. I have redirected the page to this article. Please feel free to dig through the redirect history and merge in anything useful. Thanks. Spartaz ^Humbug! 20:14, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Mark Easton

Is Mark Easton really an OW? His name has been added to the List of OWs, but his name doesn't appear in the 2007 OW Address Roll. --NigelG (or Ndsg) | Talk 11:45, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Could someone with access to the information please respond &, if appropriate, correct this? --NigelG (or Ndsg) | Talk 11:42, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

 Done Now deleted. --NigelG (or Ndsg) | Talk 21:12, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Re-assessment

I have upgraded this article to top importance. It is one of the oldest and most well-known English public schools as testified by the number of books written about it and also by the large number of foreign language Wikipedia articles. The article is in desperate need of some references. Dahliarose (talk) 22:43, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Coordinates removed

I don't know where on the planet Winchester College is, suffice it to say it can't be at bogus coordinates like "51.058N, -1.312W" which is a location in the middle of Germany. Someone with a better idea feel free to fix that. 91.33.198.17 (talk) 07:49, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

The above coordinates are correct and nowhere near Germany. The problem is that N and W are not recognised; the signs are sufficient to denote the hemispheres. Viewfinder (talk) 10:53, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Okay, so the co-ordinates are correct (yup, checked them on maps.google.co.uk; for anyone wanting to try it, just enter the figures and leave out the N and W). Anyway, what is really strange, and perhaps what 91.33.198.17 was trying to get at, is that there's a Wiki mark on Google maps which is located in Paderborn, Germany. So, all it needs is someone who knows more about how that thing got there than I to correct it. GiveMeAChance (talk) 20:59, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Old Wykehamists, Old Etonians, etc. to become "Alumni of... "?

Please see the discussion at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2011 February 10#Former pupils by school in the United Kingdom. Moonraker2 (talk) 14:13, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

Quotations

Harold Wilson used to say of certain Old Wykehamist economists: "I wish I could be as certain about anything as they are about everything".--Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) 16:23, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Kingsgate Park

The games field on the south side of Romans Road is Kingsgate Park, often known as KP. It is a cricket and athletics field in the summer. It is used for football in the winter, when it is known as 'Barn' after the small pavilion (New Barn) in the south east corner. Two boarding houses open onto Kingsgate Park, Kingsgate House and Chernocke House. The recently-built path running from Romans Road to the exit for Kingsgate Street is known as 'Yeoman's Road' since it connects Sergeant's House to Mill and is therefore the daily commute for David Yeomans, housemaster of Sergeant's and teacher of Design Technology. —Preceding unsigned comment added by TNML (talk • contribs) 09:55, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

Day Boys

I think that about twenty years ago a limited number of day boys were admitted, but that this initiative did not take off as anticipated. Are there still day boys at Winchester? Poshseagull (talk) 09:42, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

Wrong person

When I click on the Headmaster Dr. Ralph Townsend, I am redirected to another man by the same name who died 25 January 1976. Musicwriter (talk) 05:02, 25 November 2013 (UTC)

This appears to have now been corrected. - Slugfilm (talk) 01:19, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

The entrance system

At the moment, the article reads

Winchester has its own entrance examination, and does not use Common Entrance like other major public schools. Those wishing to enter a Commoner house make their arrangements with the relevant housemaster some two years before sitting the exam, usually sitting a test set by the housemaster and an interview. Those applying to College do not take the normal entrance examination but instead sit a separate, harder, exam called "Election": successful candidates may obtain, according to their performance, a scholarship, an exhibition or a Headmaster's nomination to join a Commoner House (without remission of fees).

This part of the article needs to be improved.

• Who admits Commoners? Is it the housemaster? What is the function of the housemaster's test and housemaster's interview and when do they take place? At age 11?

• Of the pupils who sit the entrance exam, are all who achieve at least a certain overall mark offered places whereas no others are? Or is there some other system?

• Can any child who meets the age requirements sit the entrance exam?

• Of the pupils who sit the election exam, do not perform well enough to be offered a scholarship or exhibition, but are nominated for a Commoner place by the headmaster, is everyone successful in actually being offered a place or does that depend on whether a housemaster can be found who wants to admit them?

• Who admits pupils to College? Is it the Fellows? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Teltelop (talk • contribs) 12:15, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

Source: current student at Winchester college. - The housemaster admits commoners at his discretion. The test and interview take place at 11 and provide the housemaster with a guide of candidate aptitude.

- The entrance exam is sat after the student receives a conditional offer at 11. Almost all students who take the exam will be admitted entry, unless they do not achieve a certain overall mark.

- Only if they have already received an offer at 11.

- Everyone who sits Election and is offered a passing grade is admitted. Usually, they will have interviewed with a housemaster at 11, and will then go to that house.

- Department staff (French, geography teachers, etc) write and mark papers, but it the Master of College who determines who is admitted to College.

Hope that answers your questions! Merelinguist (talk) 11:35, 26 September 2018 (UTC)

@Merelinguist: That's helpful, although to be incorporated into the page the information would have to be referenced. Do you happen to have a source? Klbrain (talk) 15:37, 26 September 2018 (UTC)

Trusty Servant

I can find no mention in the article of the "Trusty Servant", neither the painting nor the newsletter named after it. Is the painting not iconic enough of Win. Coll. to merit a mention somewhere? Wikipedia has no entry on "Trusty Servant" but there is an article on "Hircocervus" a considerable proportion of which discusses the painting. Maybe someone with more knowledge could add an appropriate mention of the painting in the Win. Coll. article, describing its significance to the school (at least as an icon), and linking to the Hircocervus page for further details. Jmchutchinson (talk) 19:12, 23 August 2015 (UTC)

How extraordinary that this was overlooked. Done. Chiswick Chap (talk) 19:32, 23 August 2015 (UTC)

The Trusty Servant is not in fact a hircocervus (it has no goat parts). I have now corrected this and created a separate article. --Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) (talk) 10:53, 13 December 2018 (UTC)

Wykehamist

I see the word "Wykehamist" used throughout the article, and can guess that it comes from the surname of the founder, and that it refers to a student of the college, or an alumnus, but I could not find anywhere in the article a direct explanation of who, or what, a "Wykehamist" is, or where the name comes from.  – Corinne (talk) 23:33, 21 October 2016 (UTC)

See the History. William of Wykeham. Chiswick Chap (talk) 08:31, 22 October 2016 (UTC)

Thank you, Chiswick Chap for the link. I saw the name of the founder, but merely wondered if it would be helpful for some readers to explain explicitly that the nickname of students and alumni came from the name of the founder, rather than leaving them to guess.  – Corinne (talk) 14:47, 22 October 2016 (UTC)

Nobody's stopping you. I think the original paragraph was moved to List of Old Wykehamists, you could reuse it. Chiswick Chap (talk) 15:06, 22 October 2016 (UTC)

I hesitate to add content because I haven't done it yet, and I didn't have a source. I see this sentence in the lead in the List of Old Wykehamists article:

• Former pupils of Winchester College are known as Old Wykehamists, in memory of the school's founder, William of Wykeham.

I assume that current pupils of Winchester College are known as Wykehamists. Can I modify this sentence to include both Wykehamists and Old Wykehamists? What do you think of this sentence, and can I add it without a source?

• Current pupils of Winchester College are known as Wykehamists, in memory of the school's founder, William of Wykeham; former pupils are known as as Old Wykehamists.  – Corinne (talk) 21:13, 22 October 2016 (UTC)

Done per WP:BOLD, q.v. Chiswick Chap (talk) 09:32, 23 October 2016 (UTC)

Private school

Over the last ten years most UK public sector secondary schools have converted to academies and are therefore independent. They're independent of central government and Local Education Authority control. This development has made it all the more confusing to describe private schools as independent. If you take private healthcare; go to the BUPA article and in the opening paragraph it is described as a private hospital. If private schools have private school in the opening paragraph the link takes the reader to an article that makes explicitly clear

Private schools, also known as independent schools, non-governmental, or nonstate schools,[1] are not administered by local, state or national governments; thus, they retain the right to select their students and are funded in whole or in part by charging their students tuition, rather than relying on mandatory taxation through public (government) funding; at some private schools students may be able to get a scholarship, which makes the cost cheaper, depending on a talent the student may have (e.g. sport scholarship, art scholarship, academic scholarship), financial need, or tax credit scholarships that might be available.

That is clear, unambiguous and uneqivocal.(Garageland66 (talk) 13:57, 7 January 2017 (UTC))

But it's not correct, as you have repeatedly been informed, and is against a definite consensus of other editors, see Rugby School and other places. I'll revert your changes here now. Chiswick Chap (talk) 16:02, 7 January 2017 (UTC)

Sorry Chiswick Chap what is not correct? And I've been repeatedly been informed of what and by whom?

Private schools, also known as independent schools, non-governmental, or nonstate schools,[1] are not administered by local, state or national governments; thus, they retain the right to select their students and are funded in whole or in part by charging their students tuition, rather than relying on mandatory taxation through public (government) funding; at some private schools students may be able to get a scholarship, which makes the cost cheaper, depending on a talent the student may have (e.g. sport scholarship, art scholarship, academic scholarship), financial need, or tax credit scholarships that might be available.

If you're saying this is not correct, then you need to tell us what is not correct about it and you need to edit it on the private school page. (Garageland66 (talk) 16:29, 7 January 2017 (UTC))

See the Rugby school talk page. However, I think you've been warned repeatedly about this already. Chiswick Chap (talk) 16:40, 7 January 2017 (UTC)

Let me explain. A private school is one owned and run by the headmaster or a company as a commercial venture. Many preparatory schools fall into this category. A school such as Winchester is founded by Royal Charter, has a board of governors (the Warden and Fellows), is a charity at law and is regulated by statute (the Public Schools Act 1868). The conventional use of language is to describe such a school as a public school or an independent school, not a private school, however illogical it may seem. --Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) (talk) 12:08, 9 January 2017 (UTC)

This isn't what the Wikipedia private school or public school articles state. (Garageland66 (talk) 16:43, 9 January 2017 (UTC))

Nevertheless, Sir Myles is spot on in his description, particularly as regards the 1868 Act. If you think either of private school or public school need to be amended accordingly, please follow WP:BOLD and edit them, or raise your proposed amendments on the relevant article talk pages. Thanks. Jack | ^{talk page} 10:20, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

Infobox

The infoboxes for the seven historic English public schools are, at present, inconsistent. Five have the School Type listed as ‘Independent’, one has it as ‘Private’ and only one has it as ‘Public’. Can I propose that, for the sake of consistency, they all have ‘Public School’ in the infobox. They are defined as such by the 1868 Public Schools Act. Is there a consensus on this? Garageland66 (talk) 11:38, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

As this affects multiple articles, I suggest having this discussion centrally at WT:WPSCHOOLS and linking there from each article talk page. WaggersTALK 15:47, 6 March 2017 (UTC)

What is Winchester College's legal status? Does it have legal personality? Who are the "Scholars" referred to in its official title?

"The Warden and Scholars of St Mary's College of Winchester" are a charity. Three questions arise.

1) What kind of a body is it? I'm guessing it's a common law corporation. Can someone confirm, or if I'm mistaken say what it is instead?

2) Does it have legal personality? For example, can it sue?

3) Who actually are the "scholars" referred to in its title? Are they the boys, who are mostly under the age of majority? Or perhaps they are the boys who hold scholarships, meaning the current members of College? Or does a person stay a "scholar of St Mary's college" for life, as for example members of an Oxford or Cambridge college remain members for life? Or are the "scholars" the fellows? Vemmm (talk) 19:08, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

Yes. It is a corporation, in the same way as an Oxford college or a cathedral. It was incorporated under Royal Charter. The title "Warden and Scholars" is the one under which it sues.

The term is a somewhat awkward adaptation of the position at New College, Oxford. There, there were seventy full members who could be referred to as "scholars" or "fellows" interchangeably (though "fellows" strictly referred only to those who had passed their two years' probation). There were also ten chaplains. At Winchester, under the original statutes the seventy boys were "scholars" and the ten fellows were mainly responsible for conducting chapel services (assisted by three hired chaplains), though they also constituted the governing body. I suppose the choice of "Warden and Scholars" rather than "Warden and Fellows" was partly based on New College and partly a recognition of the fact that the seventy scholars rather than the ten fellows were the people for whom the college exists. --Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) (talk) 12:52, 2 January 2018 (UTC)

Claim re oldest school

This claim appears to be incorrect, cf The King's School, Canterbury entry, as the latter was founded in 597. Andthepharaohs (talk) 12:30, 23 March 2020 (UTC)

The statement in the article is "It is the oldest of the original nine English public schools defined by the Clarendon Commission, seven of which were regulated by the Public Schools Act 1868." If you follow the link to Clarendon Commission you'll see that King's Canterbury was not one of those nine schools. --David Biddulph (talk) 12:35, 23 March 2020 (UTC)

Hjamesberglen

Hjamesberglen seems to think that this is an advertisement.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 2a00:23c0:7980:3f00:1857:811f:1c6:eb31 (talk) 13:46, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

While 2a00:23c0:7980:3f00:1857:811f:1c6:eb31 should remember to sign their posts ... Klbrain (talk) 19:38, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

Omitted passage

Some time ago someone deleted the following passage:

"In addition to the 70 scholars and 16 "Quiristers" (choristers), the statutes provided for ten "noble Commoners". These Commoners ("Commoners in Collegio") were paying guests of the Headmaster or Second Master in his official apartments in College. Other paying pupils ("Commoners extra Collegium"), either guests of one of the Masters in his private house or living in lodgings in town, grew in numbers till the late 18th century, when they were all required to live in "Old Commoners" and town boarding was banned. In the 19th century this was replaced by "New Commoners", and the numbers fluctuated between 70 and 130. The new building was compared unfavourably to a workhouse, and as it was built over an underground stream, epidemics of typhus and malaria were common.

In the late 1850s four boarding houses were planned (but only three built: those referred to as A, B and C), to be headed by housemasters: the plan, since dropped, was to increase the number of scholars to 100 so that there would be "College", "Commoners" and "Houses" consisting of 100 pupils each. In the 1860s "New Commoners" was closed and converted to classrooms, and its members were divided among four further boarding houses (D, E, G and H, collectively known as "Commoner Block"). At the same time two more houses (F and I) were acquired and added to the "Houses" category (more formally known as Old Tutors' Houses or O.T.H.); a tenth (K) was acquired in 1905 and allotted to "Commoners". The distinction between "Commoners" and "Houses" is now of purely sporting significance, such as for Winchester College Football, and "a Commoner" now means any pupil who is not a scholar. There are therefore now ten houses in addition to College, which continues to occupy the original 14th-century buildings, and the total number of pupils is almost 700. From the late 1970s there has been a continual process of extension to and upgrading of College Chambers."

It seems to me to be accurate and informative, and is corroborated by the official histories such as Cook and Firth. Is there any strong objection to its being reinstated? --Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) (talk) 16:21, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

Support reinstating the quoted material, perhaps adding the in-line citations (perhaps once per paragraph) so that casual editors can see that the text is supported by at least one reliable source. Klbrain (talk) 09:37, 15 January 2022 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion:

• Winchester College arms.png

You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 11:13, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

What kind of education did Winchester deliver

Hi there, I am not an expert on the history of this school but given the dates Winchester would have delivered Latin medium grammar training for the most part until approximately 1700. This was essential for university entrance for example, and Latin-only speaking rules fell out of fashion only in the latter part of that period.

I suggested some links which describe the kind of education that Winchester would have delivered; Latin school is the most generic, focused on the European and American model of Latin and Latin medium education; Grammar school#History describes the generic English mode of education (Grammar school in the early period is just a name meaning "school that teaches Latin grammar"; the modern sense comes much later; and in fact Winchester College is discussed on that page in that context; this is also made clear at the Public school (United Kingdom)#History section). The final suggestion was New Latin#Latin in school education 1500-1700 whih describes the heights of Latin medium education after the Renaissance and humanism influenced the curricula of these schools.

Currently there is little information about the kind of education pupils would have received at Winchester in these periods. I think something should be added in, and if the page editors feel relevant, links to some of these would I believe make sense.

Perhaps something along these lines: Winchester, as with other medieval schools, would have taught Latin grammar and other subjects through the medium of Latin. Pupils would be required to speak Latin as well as read and write it. This practice would have continued through the early modern period. Latin dominated knowledge production in most subjects before 1650, and was the spoken language of Universities and lectures until the 1700s. If anyone has details about how and when things changed, even better. There is probably information somewhere about Latin-only rules and when these may have been abandoned at Winchester, for instance.

Jim Killock (talk) 03:35, 12 April 2023 (UTC)

There is a reference to a Latin-only rule at Winchester here. Other things that might be mentioned from this other book:

• Founded in the wake of the Black Death and the shortage of priests pp 19-20
• key entry requirements to the school was basic Latin grammar p 53
• Latin statutes and record keeping pp=40-53
• Discipline meted by out pupils to pupils through the prefect system pp 56-7
• Threatened and nearly abolished under Henry VIII's reform of the Monasteries

Jim Killock (talk) 11:13, 12 April 2023 (UTC)

I've replied to the thread below, addressing the concerns here also. Please reply there NOT HERE so we don't have a now 3-thread zigzag disorganised ramble of a discussion. Chiswick Chap (talk) 09:39, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

Christopher Johnson

Re this edit: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Winchester_College&diff=1149836383&oldid=1149778584&diffmode=source "Among Latin scholars to make their mark, Christopher Johnson stands out from this period.<ref>{{harvnb|Adams|1878|pp=82-83}}</ref>." to be clear, he was both a pupil and headmaster of the college, and wrote poetry outlining the early life of the school which form key source material so his outstanding skills as a poet are relevant. I can make that clearer in an edit. Jim Killock (talk) 18:47, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

With respect, even if he'd been around the world, written half of Shakespeare's plays and could leap tall buildings with a single bound, his skills and life history would still have little relevance here, no matter how clear it is made. The entry in the List of Old Wykehamists is relevant; he's listed as one of the headmasters; he has his own article: and that's sufficient. If his book on the school contains useful facts, they can be incorporated, but that doesn't mean we have to write about the book's author here: it's an article about a school, not its alumni or staff. Chiswick Chap (talk) 18:52, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

OK. Still; if we're working on the same area for a bit, it would be helpful for you to explain and discuss the cuts you are making before making them. I have tried to do the same by giving you a heads up on what I intended to put in, for instance.

On the general matter of personalities, a school is made up of people, not just buildings and curricula. What kind of people walk out of the door is a key part of what a school is. Are the high achievers military people, politicians, bankers, or what? This theme is also reflected in the narratives of the school histories that exist outside of Wikipedia.

I am not an expert but reading the source material such as it is, Winchester seems to have had a lot of poets walk out of its doors. The first of these are Latin poets, the later ones are English, mostly "minor" (published but not the most famous) poets. Given there is a lot of other evidence of doing poetry exercises in Latin, this appears to be a big theme of Winchester's history and needs some explanation. Johnson is at the head of that, but he is just one in a long list. Jim Killock (talk) 19:15, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

Thanks. On "the cuts", I have explained clearly and immediately, both in my edit comments and here on the talk page (above, this thread) what my thoughts were.

On the history, I've reflected on the matter overnight. The article is currently at Good Article status, and the subject is more mature than that might sound, as the Template:Winchester College contains in addition Architecture , In fiction, Winchester College Football, Notions , St Catherine's Hill, The Trusty Servant, War Cloister, List of Old Wykehamists ; and on the related topics New College, Oxford, and William of Wykeham.

As the root of this tree of articles, Winchester College is quite properly written in "summary style", as many of its sections lead on to one or another of the articles listed here. Each of those sections is therefore intentionally brief, as readers interested in that subtopic can click on the "main" or "further" link to read more about it. The "History" section however does not have such a link, as no subsidiary article exists. For a school with over 600 years of history, there is as you've indicated scope for anyone interested to write such an article. That would leave the "History" section in this article at about its current length – or perhaps, at about the length it had during the GA review and up to 6 April 2023 before you started to extend it: but the article would have a "main" link to History of Winchester College, which is today a redlink.

To be quite clear, I believe, on the basis of what I've just said in the paragraph above this one, that the History section of the Winchester College article should not be extended piecemeal. We had at GA high-level coverage of the foundation, approach, and name in the History section, which provided just enough historical background to provide an even balance with the sections on Buildings, Accommodation, Academic, Activities, Traditions, Headmasters, Former pupils, and Controversy, all of which are of comparable length and degree of detail. You have now doubled the length of the history section, piecemeal, which is already uncomfortable; your signalled intention to carry on adding more material is clearly incompatible with the rest of the article, but perfectly compatible with writing a subsidiary article, linking it from Winchester College#History, and inserting it into the Template:Winchester College. You might like to do that in a userspace draft, or we might create the article as a stub and I might contribute to it, if you feel like taking on the task. When that article is complete, it will be time to revisit the History section and update it to form a sharper but not longer summary of the school's history.

To return, then, to Old Wykehamist and Headmaster Christopher Johnson: I suspect that he is not material for section 1.2: he would be material for section 1.2.5.4.2.3, way too far down among the weeds on the seabed for this article. Why? Because the school has had many distinguished headmasters, and hundreds of distinguished alumni. I'm sure he was a splendid chap, but a vast crowd of others have an equal or greater claim – among the headmasters, George Ridding and George Moberly spring to mind as far as influencing the school is concerned, while you will need no persuasion that William Waynflete was important both nationally and educationally; among the school's architects and builders, see the architecture article; and among Old Wykehamists, well, read that article. I don't think we should be duplicating those materials here; nor throwing chunks of materials (new to you, since you mention that fact above) of greater or lesser importance, as you come across them pell-mell into what, I repeat, is deliberately a summary-length History section.

To sum up, I am not averse to further work, but we must do that in an orderly way which does not disrupt the current structure. Does a school consist of curricula and people as well as buildings and sports? Of course it does, which is why the article has sections on Academic, Activities, Architecture, Sports, Headmasters, and Former pupils. Are all possible bases covered, so improvement is impossible? Of course not: but we have a practical structure here which in fact already answers the concerns you have raised; and the addition of a History article to the template will address the rest. All the best, Chiswick Chap (talk) 09:35, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

OK, I see what you mean. For my own part I am a bit old school in that I can't really be bothered with user space drafts, I know my way around sufficiently to avoid articles getting flagged for deletion etc. If you want to create a stub of sorts from your template, I can work on it from there, and we can see where we get to.

I think one or two of the points I've listed below ought to go here either way, but we can save that discussion if you like. Jim Killock (talk) 09:51, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

Yes, for the reason given already: we don't know precisely how far down the tree they should go, and a priori it's more likely that any new point is at levels 2-5 rather than at level 1. That can be judged readily once there is a whole article to summarize, at which point the task is to write a concise precis of a coherent whole, preserving "the main points", which is of course the GA criterion. Chiswick Chap (talk) 10:10, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

• added back the 12-18 age range point with a reference; this should be uncontroversial

@Chiswick Chap: Note I added this back in because your delete comment was specific that the problem was that it was "unsourced". So I am not sure why you have reverted this a second time.

From a substantine POV, at Winchester, unlike all other schools of the time, education was expected to be to 18. This has been noted as unusual and particularly remarkable, and was then adopted by Eton, etc. Procedure aside, what reason would be given to omit this fact?

Jim Killock (talk) 09:58, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

For the reason already given, that piecemeal changes will consist at random (as we don't know the priorities) of materials at levels 1..5, and we only want level 1 materials here. Rather than trying to double-guess it will be far more productive (more ink in articles, less on talk pages) to avoid piecemeal addition to a formally-reviewed article. There is another reason in this case, which is that repeated non-agreed insertion is potentially or actually disruptive. Chiswick Chap (talk) 10:10, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

I understand your desire for a controlled process and do not wish to be disruptive, hence, asking here; however, in this rather small case, this fact, which helped shape both higher and secondary education in the UK, by setting the boundary at 18 years, is highly unlikely to be anything other than a first order mention. TBH it could easily make the lead, as a matter of significance (not that I would edit it). Jim Killock (talk) 10:19, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

OK, very likely correct, but it's the wrong approach for the mass of other things to be added. I've created the stub, History of Winchester College, with the existing materials, so it's all yours. Chiswick Chap (talk) 10:27, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

Thanks, I don't propose to make any further changes, but it would do my piece of mind a favour to have this particular thing reverted. Jim Killock (talk) 10:30, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

Eh? reverted where? The date thingy is in the article where you put it. Chiswick Chap (talk) 10:35, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

Thanks, I thought you had removed it. Not sure now if you did or did not, restored a cut or not, but either way thanks for leaving it in. Jim Killock (talk) 10:43, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

Other changes to history section additions to history article

Listing out other changes as I make them in case of queries in advance of changes or after them:

• medieval period; something on what else was taught other than Latin, as far as it can be known
• added back the 12-18 age range point with a reference; this should be uncontroversial

@Chiswick Chap: Note I added this back in because your delete comment was specific that the problem was that it was "unsourced". So I am not sure why you have reverted this a second time.

It was NOT reverted twice. Chiswick Chap (talk) 10:46, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

I see - thank you - I misread your commentary in the edits. My apologies, I would not have discussed this at such length if I'd understood that you'd left the line in place. Jim Killock (talk) 10:54, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

• Civil War needs a mention, Puritan sympathies also, as Winchester was somewhat got at by Laud, and survived physically unscathed, while the town got severely damaged
• looking up what I can find on the prolific poets and writers from Winchester, to see what general observations may be made. I fear mention of some names may be necessary, or it will read very oddly
• there are some famous remarks about failing to learn Latin at Winchester in the 1700s which probably ought to be mentioned as they are widely quoted in books (eg Waquet 2001) to evidence the decline of Latin education at English public schools in general
• there's a student rebellion in the 1790s which is confusing to read about but seems very notable
• there must have been significant changes to teaching in the 1700s and 1800s; the curriculum would have widened and Latin / Greek would have become gradually less significant. I will see if the sources give anything on this

Jim Killock (talk) 09:42, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

For all of this, and for any further materials you come across, please see my reply to the thread above.

In brief (and please DO NOT REPLY here, but above, so we have just one discussion please), this sort of material will make sense in a separate history article; when it is written, we can decide what to put in the short History summary here: it makes no sense to try to do that piecemeal. Also, please do not add anything to the History section until we've agreed on the way ahead, as discussion has already started and is ongoing. Thanks. Chiswick Chap (talk) 09:47, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

Coat of arms

I was recently placed a coat of arms (File:Winchester College coat of arms.png) to the infobox, because if it's need on other English school articles like Eton College, and Harrow School. 112.204.223.12 (talk) 08:55, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

So WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS, never a good argument. A school is of interest for what it does, and for what it has done, not for its heraldry. Chiswick Chap (talk) 09:02, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

@Chiswick Chap: I recently nominated this file for deletion. 112.204.223.12 (talk) 09:24, 25 August 2023 (UTC)