Talk:William Russell (Durham MP)

Requested move 24 May 2019

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Consenus to move to William Russell (Durham MP). No one supported the current title as optimal. This title is suggested by several although not necessarily as thir first choice. I think that User:Opera hat's last posting to this conversation sums it up, and also as User:Roman Spinner points out ther is already a title William Russell (Bolton MP).

A question for User:Roman Spinner: as this man was born after the act of union 1707, why qualify with English and not British as he was a British politician (perhapse you could be kind enough to post an answer to my talk page)? PBS (talk) 11:07, 8 June 2019 (UTC)

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William Russell (1798–1850) → William Russell (Saltash, Bletchingley and County Durham MP) – Revised qualifier will delineate subject in a manner analogous to William Russell (Bolton MP) as well as numerous other MPs. If the qualifier is judged to be excessively detailed, alternatives would be William Russell (Saltash MP), William Russell (Bletchingley MP) or William Russell (County Durham MP). — Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 21:29, 24 May 2019 (UTC)

• @Roman Spinner: Can you elaborate a bit on the reasons for this request? I note that other politicians use "birth-death" as a disambiguator which probably isn't ideal, but wouldn't the preferred form be William Russell (English politician, born 1798), and therefore William Russell (English politician, born 1859) for the other? (Or "British politician"?) PC78 (talk) 23:03, 24 May 2019 (UTC)
  • @PC78: Since there are hundreds of entries under Category:British MPs which use the parenthetical qualifier "(MP)", either alone or with other elements, such as constituency or years of service, it seemed to be a natural form of disambiguation. Also, taking into account that all 13 politicians under the headers William Russell#Politics#Kingdom of England#United Kingdom were English, it seemed redundant to add "(English politician, born...)" as part of the qualifier.

Two currently active nominations, John Conyers (politician, born 1717) → John Conyers (1717–1775) and William Dowdeswell (politician, born 1682) → William Dowdeswell (1682–1728) are aimed at the opposite direction from this nomination. If, however, consensus prefers, as part of this nomination, the form William Russell (English politician, born 1798) and a subsequent nomination of William Russell (Bolton MP) → William Russell (English politician, born 1859), I will not oppose those. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 02:22, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for the reply. A quick look at the categories shows various different forms of disambiguation in use, there doesn't seem to be much consistancy and it probably doesn't help that there is no specific naming convention for politicians (at least, not that I'm aware of). The problem with your first suggestion, which I think you already know, is that the disambiguator is a bit long and cumbersome, while the alternative is to arbitrarily pick one of the three constituencies that he represented, which doesn't seem ideal either. PC78 (talk) 10:15, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

Since I consider parenthetical qualifiers consisting solely of vital dates as the least desirable form of disambiguation, to be used only as a last resort when no consensus can be achieved for a descriptive qualifier, any other form that can be agreed upon would be fine. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 17:42, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose the suggested title as far too long. If a constituency is to be used to disambiguate, then it should be Durham, as that's where he actually lived: Saltash and Bletchingley were pocket boroughs owned by his family. Opera hat (talk) 09:07, 25 May 2019 (UTC)
  • Again, if consensus coalesces around William Russell (1798–1850) → William Russell (Durham MP), I will also support that form. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 02:22, 26 May 2019 (UTC)
• Support William Russell (politician, born 1798). The best disambiguator for MPs who've served several constituencies. His nationality is unnecessary, given there seem to be no other politicians who share his birth date. William Russell (Durham MP) would be my second choice. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:14, 29 May 2019 (UTC)
• Support William Russell (English politician, born 1798). I think this option would be preferred over William Russell (politician, born 1798) since William Russell (politician) and William Russell (English politician) are both ambiguous, so this choice is like the next level down from "English politician". Steel1943 (talk) 18:51, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose any combination of "politician, born 1798". WP:NCPDAB says this should only be used when no other options are available. Disambiguating by constituency is done for many other MPs and there's no reason why it can't be done here, but using all of them is unnecessary. County Durham is the constituency with which he is most closely associated, by residence. Opera hat (talk) 03:50, 5 June 2019 (UTC)
  • WP:NCPDAB states that "...For historical figures for whom there is no dominant qualifier (at least no practical one), the descriptor may be omitted in favour of a single use of the date of birth or death.". For this subject "(politician)" would seem to clearly be the necessary dominant/practical qualifier for it. Steel1943 (talk) 05:27, 5 June 2019 (UTC)

The purpose of the qualifier is to disambiguate. The unadorned noun "politician" could refer to several people called William Russell, so is of no practical use for disambiguation. The example given by WP:NCPDAB of using a further qualifier to disambiguate is Roger Taylor (Queen drummer), not Roger Taylor (drummer, born 1949). The guideline says that the "qualifier, born XXXX" format should only be used "[w]here the disambiguation can't be resolved in a straightforward manner by such more specific qualifiers". This is not the case here: William Russell (Durham MP) (or William Russell (Durham politician), if you insist) is a simple and straightforward way of distinguishing between this man and the other politicians of the same name. Opera hat (talk) 10:43, 5 June 2019 (UTC)

History of Parliament, Durham County page

This page gives John Allen for John Allan (see Foster ref). Charles Matthews (talk) 05:15, 7 August 2022 (UTC)