Talk:Will Champion/Archive 1

Archive 1

Lead content

The lede for this article does not need his birth place, school and childhood music lessons.

The lead is meant to be a short version of the article itself. One quick line about his early years that continues into his artistry (which is relevant since he is well... an artist) is not the end of the world and checks out the early years section. --GustavoCza (talk) 17:50, 24 March 2022 (UTC)

And since you care so much about the lead, how about improving it? Deleting everything is not improving. Add information. --GustavoCza (talk) 17:50, 24 March 2022 (UTC)

The lead doesn't need more information, it's adequate as it is. I'm not deleting anything, the info is still there in the article. Information like his university degree subject is not significant here. The musical influence stuff is admittedly better.

Adding his degree is literally just one word more, also not the end of the world. If the musical influence is relevant to the lead then why are you deleting it? His early years are technically part of his musical style too. You are just being petty at this point, and this isn't the first time you're harassing someone as I learned recently. --GustavoCza (talk) 17:56, 24 March 2022 (UTC)

Editing articles I have in the watch list is not harassing.

The issue is bloat. This Information isn't fundamental to understanding who he is and why he's notable, which is why there's a lead, and not just a main article.

There are many pages that cite an artist's style/influences on the lead. Besides, not everyone reads the entirety of the article, hence why the main guideline is that the lead should hold on its own as a short version of the full thing. How this lead can do that if there's nothing on his early years, style or influences? In fact, I didn't even put his solo endeavours. An 8-line lead is hardly "bloated". --GustavoCza (talk) 18:05, 24 March 2022 (UTC)

There may well be other things that can be productively added to the lead. But until today you've made no effort to discuss per WP:BRD to establish what it should look like.

I think it hold's it own already, without what you're currently adding. Unbh (talk) 18:12, 24 March 2022 (UTC)

If you think other things can be added productively then why haven't you done it? You have only deleted things so far and the most recent edit just out of spite. The lead does not hold on its own, I literally just cited multiple things that are missing. --GustavoCza (talk) 18:15, 24 March 2022 (UTC)

@GustavoCza I've removed the statements about his style and lead vocals. There's no description of his style or how it's been assessed in the article, and there's nothing about vocals in live performances. Feel free to restore when supported by reliable sources in the body.Unbh (talk) 05:46, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

"Knowing the difference between the major and minor key is very important too, and I was lucky to learn all that before I was playing drums. That has more to do with the feel of a song [...] instead of knowing how to play powerfully for a second or two".

"When questioned on which Coldplay songs he thinks that are his technical or "feel-wise" best, Champion noted being most proud of tracks where everything is boiled down to the essentials, citing "Viva la Vida" as an example".

"During the Viva la Vida Tour, he performed an acoustic version of the song "Death Will Never Conquer", which was included on LeftRightLeftRightLeft (2009). His lead vocals can also be heard on "The Goldrush", a B-side for "Life in Technicolor II". Meanwhile, his version of "In My Place" from the A Head Full of Dreams Tour was released on Live in Buenos Aires (2018)".

--GustavoCza (talk) 05:52, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

a quoe from him in an interview is not enough to suuport this statement in the lede "His drumming style is noted for a melodical approach emphasizing feel over technical virtuosity". if it's noted, then there should be discussion of it in reliable sources in the body, and an interview with him where he describes himself if not noted.Unbh (talk) 06:00, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

@GustavoCza please stop adding unsupported content to the lede. Improve the main article with sources - which surely exist if what you want to add is true. Then you can restore the statemnt to the lede.Unbh (talk) 06:31, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

How two interviews with Will himself is not a source? You're grasping at straws at this point. -- GustavoCza (talk) 06:33, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

Because him talking in an interview about his style is not the same as any statement that resembles "His drumming style is noted". You need sources with out people discussing his music where they address his style of play.

That's a wording problem at best. If we just say his style is like that then it's factually correct since it's based on what Will himself said on interviews. --GustavoCza (talk) 06:48, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

Not really. Interviews with the subject are not good sources for this sort of thing, and they're certainly not sufficient for this sort of statement to go into the lede. I might say I am a good footballer. I doesn't mean that should go in a description of me without reliable sources that say "Unbh is a good footballer".Unbh (talk) 06:58, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

Champion is not praising himself though, he is describing how he plays drums. I'm pretty sure someone who has been drumming for 24 years to make a living knows how to describe the way he plays it. -- GustavoCza (talk) 07:02, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

If you give a read on the interviews, you can clearly see stuff written by the magazines that support his statements:

"So you obviously aren’t one to overplay [...]"

"His lengthy musical training and total sensitivity to a song’s melodic elements made him the perfect drummer to back Martin [...]"

"Playing on a [...] basic Yamaha drumkit [...] Champion seems to have a magic touch on Rush for providing exactly what’s needed, every time".

-- GustavoCza (talk) 07:11, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

THat wasn't what was written - what's there now is better, but it should still be better supported in the article. Interviews and questions from interviewers are not really good sources for this, and the whole thing is basically WP:SYNTHUnbh (talk) 07:14, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

I'm pretty good with the lead as it stands right now. Can we declare consensus and move on? Let's just leave the article alone, we already got warnings over it.

-- GustavoCza (talk) 18:14, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

This article requires review for grammar and style edits.

This article requires review for grammar and style edits. 186.15.117.135 (talk) 10:26, 20 June 2022 (UTC)

Please elaborate. -- GustavoCza (talk) 11:51, 20 June 2022 (UTC)

GA Review

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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This review is transcluded from Talk:Will Champion/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Kj cheetham (talk · contribs) 16:39, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

Starting review. -Kj cheetham (talk) 16:39, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose, spelling, and grammar): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):

   Ok

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a (reference section): b (inline citations to reliable sources): c (OR): d (copyvio and plagiarism):

   Copyvio check only flagged up quotes, album names, and list of drums/cymbals, which is probably okay.

3. It is broad in its coverage.

   a (major aspects): b (focused):

   Ok.

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

   Seems neutrally worded.

5. It is stable.

   No edit wars, etc.:

   Seems stable.

6. It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.

   a (images are tagged and non-free content have non-free use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):

   Images fine, with captions and appropriate licenses.

7. Overall:

   Pass/Fail:

Hi GustavoCza and Cherrell410, I've done a partial review.

Comments:

Lead - fine. Some things from here aren't mentioned in the main body of the article, but are about Coldplay rather than Champion so that's ok.

Early life - fine.

Career - fine.

Musical style - fine.

Personal life - fine.

Discography - fine, but probably needs a ref.

Further reading - noted Roach, Martin (2003) is one of the refs, but the ref is only page 41 rather than the whole book, so that's fine.

Overall, quite a few quotes, but I think it's ok, and is well-written.

Optional grammar suggestions:

"anthropology at University College London" to "anthropology from University College London"

"Highfield suburb of the city close" to "Highfield suburb of the city, close"

" his older brother, they attended Highfield Church regularly as well." to "his older brother, and they attended Highfield Church regularly."

"Champion did not always enjoyed" to "Champion did not always enjoy"

"in spite of basically not" to "in spite of not"

"investor of their namesake" to "investor in their namesake.

"he visited University of Southampton" to "he visited the University of Southampton"

"also owns a Yamaha hardware" to "also owns Yamaha hardware"

"not confident to play" to "not confident enough to play"

"became part his performance" to "became part of his performance"

"parents Tim and Sara used" to "parents, Tim and Sara, used"

"also commented" to "also commented that"

"During Music of the Spheres World Tour" to "During the Music of the Spheres World Tour"

I'm sure there's Oxford comma issues, but definitely not required for GA.

I still need to do a copyvio check (Earwig isn't working for me right now for some reason), and to look at sourcing, but I'll put it on hold in the meantime. I should be able to have another look within the coming days. Thanks. -Kj cheetham (talk) 17:07, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

All corrected. GustavoCza (talk • contribs) 18:06, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

Oh, I forgot to comment on the discography sources: his drumming in Past Perfect Future Tense (2004) and Someday World (2014) are already mentioned in "Other projects", so I don't think it's necessary to put another reference there. GustavoCza (talk • contribs) 18:12, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

Looks good to me, and I agree about the discography sourcing. I've done the copyvio check now too, which is mostly ok. https://copyvios.toolforge.org/?lang=en&project=wikipedia&oldid=1172534176&action=compare&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.musicradar.com%2Fnews%2Fdrums%2Fwill-champion-on-world-domination-with-coldplay-new-kits-and-the-art-of-waiting-640887 shows it mostly just flagged quotes and the list of kit. I just need to do the sourcing spot checks, then can move onto passing this I think. -Kj cheetham (talk) 19:00, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

Ok! GustavoCza (talk • contribs) 19:06, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

GustavoCza, and here is my sourcing spot check!

[2] confirms the 100 million figure, but couldn't see where Parlophone have not disclosed the amount of records is verified?

[4] ok (the note in brackets saved me some time!)

[6] confirms education, but not being raised in Highfield.

[7] this one confirms Highfield though.

[11] confirmed a quote.

[12] ok

[14] ok

[16] ok

[18] link didn't work for me, so should probably mark it as dead, but the archive version is ok.

[20] ok

[22] also should be marked as dead, but archive is ok

[24] ok

[26] ok

[28] ok

[30] ok, though it was on page 5 rather than the first page

[32] ok, though it was on page 4 rather than the first page

[34] ok

[36] a book I don't have access too, but taking on good faith it's ok (it definitely looks like the right page)

[38] not sure why this isn't split into two refs. The first of them confirms two children, but not three?

[42] confirmed he drew one in Portugal, but not sure it says for each city he visited?

-Kj cheetham (talk) 19:26, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

P.S. Actually for [30], the equipment stuff is on page 5, but some of the quotes are on other pages. -Kj cheetham (talk) 19:49, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

[2] Parlophone just... didn't disclosed it, at least not in their most recent press releases anyway. I placed that note because most record labels report the amount of records (albums + singles) to pretend their artists are bigger than they actually are.

[31] I'm assuming you confused reference [32] with this one. I specified the page now too, I personally prefer 5 rather than 4 because in 5 the writer states "energetic as always", compared to describing just one song.

[36] I replaced it with a more accessible reference, I own all of Coldplay's albums and can confirm it's true.

[38] I don't like to split references, it looks cluttered. The Guardian's article mentions he is "father of a two-year-old and three-week-old twins", which is three.

[42] The reference doesn't say for each city, I placed it as an example, otherwise I would have to cite each one of his tweets (You can check the drawings here). GustavoCza (talk • contribs) 20:13, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

As for the references you asked me to mark as dead: done! GustavoCza (talk • contribs) 20:15, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

Oh, just a further note on the sales note. Some users kept trying to change "albums" to "records", that was another reason for me to create it. Placing as "records" and pretending those are not album sales alone undermines Coldplay's actual success. GustavoCza (talk • contribs) 20:20, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

GustavoCza I missed the word "twins" in The Guardian article, hence me thinking it said only two, and I think I had mixed up [31] and [32], apologies! All fine now except for [42], as it feels like a bit of WP:OR to say it was every city he visited without a source explicitly saying that. Maybe just change to something like "for cities visited" or similar, and add another example? -Kj cheetham (talk) 10:15, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

Done! GustavoCza (talk • contribs) 11:51, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

Good work, I'm now happy to pass this! -Kj cheetham (talk) 12:10, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Thank you will

Thank you Will. My daughter bought us tix to Pasadena and she always has loved you as her main focus in the band and we enjoyed the experience and your commitment. You made our father / daughter generational experience 2601:940:C100:DD50:5DE5:D237:5A3D:7234 (talk) 04:04, 26 October 2023 (UTC)