Talk:West Caribbean Airways Flight 708

Time

Can the 2:00 a.m. time for the distress call be reasonable? From the Wikipedia coordinates for Panama City and Maracaibo, the distance is about 900km or of the order of an hour's flying time. I wonder if the 2:00 a.m. is actually the departure time. 213.162.103.78 16:59, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

The departure time has now been given as 01:00 local (UTC-4). Still it seems odd to me for an aircraft to be stooging around on one engine for an hour about an hour's flying time from its point of departure. I now wonder if the departure and initial distress call times are Panamanian times (UTC-5). Venezuela is on UTC-4. Or maybe I've got the distances involved totally wrong or something. EdDavies 10:03, August 17, 2005 (UTC)

I think it depends on what is meant by "local". Venezuela is on UTC-4, but Panama where the flight originated is on UTC-5. To avoid confusion, I will change the timeline to UTC. Myron 17:17, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

Well done, that makes a lot more sense. EdDavies 07:21, August 18, 2005 (UTC)

Number of Fatalities

BBC says 152 passengers adn 8 crew. Rich Farmbrough 17:29, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

Some sources in Google news say 153 passengers, but this seems to be an earlier figure, now updated. -- Curps 18:00, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

Something's Up...

There's been a lot of plane crashes as of late. First at Toronto-Pearson Interntnational, then Greece, now here. Don't you think something's up? Pacific Coast Highway 17:56, August 16, 2005 (UTC)

And the death toll keeps getting higher. Athens was 121. This time, it's 160. Acetic Acid 18:44, August 16, 2005 (UTC)

No, I don't. Planes crash all the time. And the amount of people on a plane isn't based upon how many died in the most recent crash. --S.M. 01:47, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

Yes something is up. It is called a poisson distribution.

Also, a descent rate of 7000 ft/min is staggering, that's not a glide - it's almost a nosedive (or yet another of those supposedly-impossible T-tail stalls). Perhaps the APU and RAT also failed, but what are the odds against that?. (ChrisRed 17Aug05 - 09:40)

It's a perfectly reasonable descent rate if you're trying to restart one or both engines using what's called a "windmill start" - using the speed of the air to drive the engine so that it will start. Not unlike having a car with a dead battery, rolling it down a hill then engaging the clutch to drive the pistons through the wheels (basically in reverse) instead of using the starter motor.

A T-tail stall has nothing to do with rates of descent like this - a deep stall will come down almost level in attitude in many cases - the BAC1-11 that crashed on Salisbury Plain years ago virtually hit belly first, going straight down. MadScot666 18:44, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Age of copilot

French television says that the copilot was only 21. Is it true ?Hektor 20:07, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

Maybe, but how is this relevant? What does the age of the copilot have to do with engine failure? mateo

It is relevant if lack of experience of the crew prevented them from reacting properly to an engine failure. Generally, if you have an engine failure, you don't get into such a nosedive.Hektor 22:47, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

Investigation

I just heard in the news that it was because human error and overweight the main causes for this accident. where can we verificate this? Minako-Chan* 18:37, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

In flames, or working?

One part of this says the engines were in flames and failed. Yet later on it mentions the postmortem on the engines showed that they were working on impact, supporting the theory of icing. So which is it? Were the engines on fire? Were they stalled and flaming out? Or were they working? Someone needs to clear this up to make the parts consistant. Gigs 01:56, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

The statement about them being "in flames" is an error almost certainly due to the term "flameout" being either misunderstood or mistranslated between the three languages (English, Spanish, French) of the various parties to the investigation. The NTSB factual report, cited in the article references, makes it clear.

Also, the engines were NOT stated to be "working" - the wording is "Both engines exhibited indications of high-speed compressor rotation at the time of ground impact." That means that the engine cores and fans were rotating at time of impact, but not necessarily that the engines were working. It's likely that the engines were "windmilling" but not producing power.

Finally, nothing about the conditions at impact can tell you anything about whether the plane had experienced icing conditions some 5-10 minutes previously; any ice would have been long gone after that high speed descent. MadScot666 19:01, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Wow

This wasn't a very big story was it cause in reading about Hurricane Dean; this is the first I have heard about the plane crash. HurricaneChase (talk)

Final report

The JIAAC have released their final report (in Spanish) into the accident. Apparently this was a deep stall incident, covered in English at the Aviation Herald website. Mjroots (talk) 20:21, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

• Another link at http://issuu.com/docantilles/docs/informe_final_hk4374x-058-2005 WhisperToMe (talk) 06:04, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

References.

Here are the external links I removed. They could be used as references, but do not belong in External links.

• Accident in Venezuela to a Boeing McDonnell Douglas MD82 on 16 August 2005 - Bureau d'Enquêtes et d'Analyses pour la Sécurité de l'Aviation Civile
• NTSB factual report
• CNN article
• Reuters article
• BBC News article
• Sky News article
• Accident description at the Aviation Safety Network
• (in French) LCI: La Martinique durement frappée (includes phone numbers of information hotlines)

SpigotMap 15:36, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

• Some of them do belong in the external links. Not the news articles, but ASN and the NTSB, BEA, etc links all need to stay. WhisperToMe (talk) 05:50, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

More stuff

• "MTC entregó informe final sobre accidente aéreo en Machiques de 2005." MCT. 16 August 2010. It's now a 404, but it's still google cached

WhisperToMe (talk) 05:50, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

• Aviation Herald: http://avherald.com/h?article=4308e7d6&opt=0 WhisperToMe (talk) 15:31, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

Files

French:

• http://www.bea.aero/fr/enquetes/venezuela/venezuela.php
  • http://www.webcitation.org/5zlvrPazP (old archive, without summary links)
  • http://www.webcitation.org/66zxEqSc0 (new archive, with links to summaries in English, French, and Spanish)
• Summary: http://www.bea.aero/fr/enquetes/venezuela/summary.fr.php
  • http://www.webcitation.org/66zxAgPjq
• http://www.bea.aero/fr/enquetes/venezuela/com16aout2005.php
  • http://www.webcitation.org/5zlwddXNo
• http://www.bea.aero/fr/enquetes/venezuela/com23aout2005.pdf
  • http://www.webcitation.org/5zlwj76Qq
• http://www.bea.aero/fr/enquetes/venezuela/com24aout2005.php
  • http://www.webcitation.org/5zlwnxFb5
• http://www.bea.aero/fr/enquetes/venezuela/com26aout2005.php
  • http://www.webcitation.org/5zlwq3D97
• http://www.bea.aero/fr/enquetes/venezuela/com5septembre2005.php
  • http://www.webcitation.org/5zlwryCpA
• http://www.bea.aero/fr/enquetes/venezuela/com8septembre2005.php
  • http://www.webcitation.org/5zlww7yoB
• http://www.bea.aero/fr/enquetes/venezuela/com9septembre2005.php
  • http://www.webcitation.org/5zlwxh8TF
• http://www.bea.aero/fr/enquetes/venezuela/com22novembre2005.php
  • http://www.webcitation.org/5zlwl6Ez0

English: (the BEA seems to have stopped doing English releases at some point)

• http://www.bea.aero/en/enquetes/venezuela/venezuela.php
  • http://www.webcitation.org/5zlvu8KO8 - Old archive - at the time the BEA had not yet released an English summary
  • http://www.webcitation.org/65kbXsjVT - New archive, which shows link to English summary
  • http://www.webcitation.org/68LfT9Kqy - Another new archive, now in a narrative form
• http://www.bea.aero/en/enquetes/venezuela/pressrelease16august2005.php
  • http://www.webcitation.org/5zlwBppkw
• http://www.bea.aero/en/enquetes/venezuela/pressrelease24august2005.php
  • http://www.webcitation.org/5zlwHIBvM
• http://www.bea.aero/en/enquetes/venezuela/pressrelease26august2005.php
  • http://www.webcitation.org/5zlwKfG9E
• http://www.bea.aero/en/enquetes/venezuela/pressrelease05september2005.php
  • http://www.webcitation.org/5zlwO0PoQ
• http://www.bea.aero/en/enquetes/venezuela/pressrelease08september2005.php
  • http://www.webcitation.org/5zlwXdJ21
• http://www.bea.aero/en/enquetes/venezuela/pressrelease09september2005.php
  • http://www.webcitation.org/5zlwbCyqD
• http://www.bea.aero/en/enquetes/venezuela/pressrelease22november2005.php
  • http://www.webcitation.org/5zlwEyndd
• Summary: http://www.bea.aero/en/enquetes/venezuela/summary.en.php
  • http://www.webcitation.org/65kbLul1w

Spanish:

• http://www.bea.aero/fr/enquetes/venezuela/summary.es.php
  • http://www.webcitation.org/66zx2yWkX
• http://www.bea.aero/en/enquetes/venezuela/notadeprensa21agusto2006.es.pdf
  • http://www.webcitation.org/5zlvlTVlg

The French translation of the Spanish final report seems to be too big for webcitation.org to handle

WhisperToMe (talk) 06:12, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

PT2 Probe

The "Aftermath and Investigation" section contains the phrase "ice inside each engine's PT2 probe". Is anyone knowledgeable able edit to explain what a PT2 probe is, and how icing of them affects engine/plane performance? Thanks. B.Comrie.Evans (talk) 01:23, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

CAEAC

Also, what is the CAEAC? The article doesn't say. Cousin Ricky (talk) 06:04, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

More sources

• "Investigadores del Minfra tienen la custodia de las cajas negras del avión colombiano siniestrado." Prensa Minfra. 17 August 2005. - http://www.webcitation.org/68LpkEFIW

WhisperToMe (talk) 22:00, 11 June 2012 (UTC)

Photo of first officer David Muñoz

So I found a photo of first officer David Muñoz on Getty Images: https://www.gettyimages.com/detail/news-photo/recent-picture-of-david-munoz-co-pilot-of-a-colombian-plane-news-photo/53395559 Should it be used? Tigerdude9 (talk) 18:19, 25 November 2018 (UTC)