Talk:Welsh-medium education

References

i put that it doesnt site any references because the 2 that it does site the links dont work.--Allie cabab (talk) 16:55, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

"Effects" section: misleading structure

The section entitled "Effects" is structured in such a way that it links the performance of students in the south Wales valleys to Welsh medium schools. The citation (1) indicates that students from the south Welsh valleys are five times less likey to apply to Oxford or Cambridge. The citation does not link this to Welsh medium schools and yet it appears in this context in this article.

According to David, R et al (2003, The Socio-Economic Characteristics of the South Wales Valleys in a Broader Context. A report for the Welsh Assembly Government), "[E]ducational attainment in the valleys is low". However this is in the scope of both English and Welsh medium schools. I believe that the second half of this section be made clearer, removed, or referenced. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.58.250.94 (talk) 19:23, 6 April 2014 (UTC)

Hi, thank you for explaining the issue here. I will try and re-word this section to make it clearer. Arthur goes shopping (talk) 09:38, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

Bilingual schools

The article should mention the provision of Welsh-medium education in bilingual schools such as Caereinion High School and Llanfyllin High School, as well as in Welsh-meduim schools. I have raised the distinction between Welsh-medium, English-medium and bilingual schools in Talk:Education in Wales#Bilingual education; the same points apply here. Verbcatcher (talk) 11:25, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

Hyphenation

The phrases "Welsh medium" and "English medium" ought always to be hyphenated, including in the article title. Harfarhs (talk) 18:52, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

I agree. "Welsh medium education" could be read as coming somewhere below "Welsh higher education" (or possibly as the education of Welsh mediums). However, grammatical issues are sometimes contentious so I suggest following the Wikipedia:Requested moves process for the article title. Verbcatcher (talk) 22:46, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

An IP editor had made this change in the article, which has not been reverted for three months. I will move the article to match. Verbcatcher (talk) 22:59, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

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Sources for table statistics?

Where are these table statistics coming from? I looked at the version history and all of the statistics since 2014 have been added by IP users who didn't cite sources. I've tried looking for where they got the numbers but I can't find anything. I don't know if these numbers are made up or not! Help would be appreciated, I'm moving the tables here to the talk page as not to have unsourced and potentially incorrect information in the article itself.

Primary education table

School year	Total pupils	Welsh-Medium pupils	Welsh-Medium as % of total	% change
2021–2022	266,574	63,826	23.94%	-0.1%
2020–2021	272,339	65,380	24.01%	+1.6%
2019–2020	271,323	65,142	23.64%	-0.3%
2018–2019	274,799	65,800	23.94%	+0.2%
2017–2018	277,095	66,189	23.89%	-0.7%
2016–2017	276,940	66,612	24.05%	+0.8%
2015–2016	276,954	66,101	23.86%	-0.3%
2014–2015	273,400	65,460	23.94%	+0.2%
2013–2014	269,421	64,366	23.89%	-0.1%
2012–2013	264,186	63,192	23.92%	+0.4%
2011–2012	262,144	62,446	23.82%	+1.1%
2010–2011	259,189	61,073	23.56%	+0.6%
2009–2010	257,445	60,318	23.43%	+0.9%
2008–2009	258,314	59,989	23.22%	+0.7%
2007–2008	237,917	54,895	23.07%	+2.6%
2006–2007	240,621	54,099	22.48%	+3.7%
2005–2006	243,982	52,867	21.67%	+1.9%
2004–2005	248,328	52,792	21.26%	+4.9%
2003–2004	252,230	51,131	20.27%	+2.5%
2002–2003	256,690	50,756	19.77%	+3.5%
2001–2002	260,151	49,687	19.10%	+1.5%
2000–2001	262,751	49,422	18.81%

Secondary education table

School year	Total pupils	Welsh-Medium pupils	Welsh-Medium as % of total	% change
2021–2022	198,473	45,505	22.93%	+0.6%
2020–2021	196,441	44,762	22.79%	+0.7%
2019–2020	192,017	43,496	22.63%	+1.5%
2018–2019	187,938	41,905	22.30%	+2.1%
2017–2018	184,371	40,285	21.85%	+2.5%
2016–2017	183,975	39,233	21.32%	+1.0%
2015–2016	184,040	38,858	21.11%	+1.3%
2014–2015	186,784	38,933	20.84%	+1.6%
2013–2014	189,969	38,977	20.52%	+1.7%
2012–2013	194,927	39,326	20.17%	-3.2%
2011–2012	198,015	41,262	20.84%	+0.4%
2010–2011	201,230	41,764	20.75%	-2.7%
2009–2010	203,907	43,432	21.30%	+4.4%
2008–2009	205,421	41,916	20.40%	+3.6%
2007–2008	206,936	40,756	19.69%	+1.8%
2006–2007	210,353	40,702	19.35%	+1.0%
2005–2006	213,045	40,828	19.16%	+2.2%
2004–2005	214,626	40,221	18.74%	+0.6%
2003–2004	215,609	40,169	18.63%	+1.2%
2002–2003	214,276	39,458	18.41%	+0.5%
2001–2002	212,024	38,817	18.31%	+1.4%
2000–2001	210,396	38,007	18.06%

Discussion

Any replies should go in this section. – Treetoes023 (talk) 04:40, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

Pinging relevant Wikipedians (Llewee—Titus Gold—Sirfurboy) – Treetoes023 (talk) 04:46, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

Pinging DankJae would probably be a good idea too. I am sorry to say I have no idea where the numbers are from, although they look plausible. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 06:09, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

@Sirfurboy: Thanks for the suggestion, I'll ping him. @DankJae: – Treetoes023 (talk) 06:13, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

The tables state their source as: Information taken from Schools in Wales (accessed 23 July 2010) Update for last three years taken from School Census Results, 2012 (accessed 17 May 2013). Neither of which now open, but I will check archives shortly. This would only explain half of the tables, but presumably there is equivalent data being published somewhere, albeit no one has stated where. I will see if I can track it down. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 06:18, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

The Welsh Government publish School Census data in a series [1] that confirms percentages for each year I have checked so far. However the total numbers of pupils don't match exactly. For instance, this ref has data for 2011-2015: [2]. See table 2, which gives secondary school numbers for those years as 41,764, 41,262, 37,692, 37,400 and 36,458 respectively. So 2011 and 2012 are correct in the above table, but 2013 onwards do not match. Also checking primaries, the numbers are 61,073, 62,446, 63,192, 64,366 and 65,460 respectively. Again 2011 and 2012 match but the later figures do not.

My conclusion is that the information in the tables is correct, per the sources originally given (Welsh Government School Census data) until the figures inserted in 2013 (i.e. up to the end of 2012). Thereafter they have been obtained from a different and unstated source. Although that different source is probably consistent with itself, there may be a subtle difference in methodology. Our table, in being a combination of two sources, is thus a case of WP:SYNTH.

The solution is to replace figures from 2013 onwards with figures taken from the Welsh Government school census data, or else locate the source of the recent data and replace the historical data with data from that. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 06:44, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

I've been updating this table yearly for the last decade or so using data from the annual school census. The reason that the numbers don't match is that since 2012/13 middle schools have existed in Wales and so I've been combining the middle school figures with the secondary school figures from that year onwards, this was at one time stated above the table but seems to have been removed at some point. I have been meaning to create a middle school table but haven't gotten around to it. Sptomos (talk) 07:14, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for this. That clears things up. We need to improve the referencing on the tables for verifiability, but these can go back in on the basis that all the data is coming from a single and reliable source. It would probably be best to have the middle school figures in their own table rather than combiining them, as that could also be WP:SYNTH (how do you aportion the numbers between primary and secondary?) Keeping it consistent with the source is better. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 07:28, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

I've simply been combining the middle school and secondary school figures since the vast majority of middle school pupils are of secondary school age, this means that the primary school figures should not need amendment. I agree that an extra middle school table would be best, but I have also been considering a combined table of all pupils as that may also be of interest. Sptomos (talk) 07:53, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

​​​Using this StatsWales dataset these numbers can be computed by calculating some totals, and these seem to be indirectly correct. Note the source has a sector option at the top. These numbers as stated by the text above the table while it was in the article includes those with smaller-degrees of Welsh-medium education by including bilingual-medium. Although maybe a "bilingual" column should be added instead? Per the dataset, the primary school figures are the totals of "Welsh-medium", "Dual stream" and "transitional" when calculated together. While the "secondary school" are as stated above are the total of both "secondary school" and "middle school" and including the "bilingual types" figures.

This dataset may be specifying the figures in greater detail as a primary source, and these figures could come still from a secondary report which could've produced these totals I am yet to find. But if these were grouped by an editor as stated above, it leans WP:SYNTH and at minimum should be better explained how the totals were calculated, as the purely "secondary school" figures are different. Best is to expand the table to similarly match what StatsWales categorises them as.

While these figures (I have not checked all of them yet, but the few most recent can be correctly calculated) seem correct, I believe more context can be added by expanding the table and explaining them in more detail. Although happily they are not fabricated entirely, and are in good faith.

For example from the dataset, the recent 2021/22 for primary is 55,991 (Welsh-medium) + 7,446 (dual) + 389 (transit.) = 63,826, among 266,574 all pupils. And secondary is 16,156 (Welsh-medium), 7,988 (Bilingual A), 8,951 (Bl. B) and 2,189 (Bl. C), so 35,284, but adding middle school figures of 5,546 (WM), 2,527, (Bl. A), 1,354, (Bl. B) and 794 (Bl. C) for 10221, the two types combined is 45,505 among 22,516 + 175,957 = 198,473 all pupils. Which match the most recent figures in the table above.

Ofc, there could be a secondary source making these totals, but without it, this seems to be how the results in the table above were calculated. Plus there could be a more appropriate StatsWales dataset that is clearer with the figures, but so far could not find it. Regards DankJae 19:16, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

@DankJae, Sptomos, and Sirfurboy: Okay, so from what I have collected from this discussion, we should have 3 tables, one for elementary school, one for middle school, and one for high school, and the data for purely Welsh-medium education students and bilingual education students should be separated into two separate columns. Is that all or did I miss something? – Treetoes023 (talk) 22:06, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

Grouping Middle with Secondary was not clearly stated in the previous arrangement, so I guess so, three tables, although there is also data for Nurseries and Special schools. Distinguishing between only Welsh-medium and bilingual is only my preference, others may have different opinions. DankJae 23:45, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

The dataset doesn't provide the student count for the language mediums of the special schools and nurseries, it only provides the total student count so we can't make any tables for them. – Treetoes023 (talk) 00:51, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

Ah you're correct, got ahead of myself, haha, tired of numbers. :/ DankJae 01:03, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

It's okay, we've all been there. tbh I'm tired of numbers too rn. If no one else wants to adjust the tables and make new ones I can do it, but it will be a day or 2 before I start working on it. – Treetoes023 (talk) 01:32, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

New table

​​​ Below are tables generated based on the purely StatsWales source above, headers with an asterisk were self-generated not sure whether we should be strict with including them or not if it is SYNTH. I kept all columns that potentially could be relevant, while omitting English-medium ones, however the bilingual columns could be reduced to just the "total bilingual" as the types may not be needed for readers. "Any forms" (be free to suggest alternate headings) is basically Welsh-medium (WM) and Bilingual combined, based on how the figures above defined WM. Be free to suggest any changes, I would prefer the table be cut down a bit, but not sure what is needed or best removed. Hopefully no errors slipped through, will slowly check the calculations again. Diolch DankJae 21:15, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

Draft new table, too detailed

Primary Number of Primary school pupils in Welsh-medium education (Pupil Level Annual School Census) School year Total pupils in Wales Welsh-medium only Other forms of partial Welsh-medium All forms of any Welsh-medium Welsh-medium pupils Welsh-medium as % of total* % change* Dual stream pupils Transitional pupils Total other* No. of pupils with any WM* % of total* % change* "Partly" Welsh-medium 2021/22 266574 55991 21.00% 0.14% 7446 389 7835 63826 23.94% -0.06% – 2020/21 272339 56810 20.86% -0.01% 7905 665 8570 65380 24.01% 0.00% – 2019/20 271323 56625 20.87% 0.10% 7949 568 8517 65142 24.01% 0.06% – 2018/19 274799 57062 20.76% 0.02% 8152 586 8738 65800 23.94% 0.06% – 2017/18 277095 57486 20.75% 0.04% 8099 604 8703 66189 23.89% -0.17% – 2016/17 276940 57332 20.70% 0.14% 8702 578 9280 66612 24.05% 0.19% – 2015/16 276954 56946 20.56% 0.06% 8570 585 9155 66101 23.87% -0.08% – 2014/15 273400 56064 20.51% 0.12% 8614 782 9396 65460 23.94% 0.05% – 2013/14 269421 54915 20.38% 0.26% 8453 998 9451 64366 23.89% -0.03% – 2012/13 264186 53172 20.13% 0.16% 9049 971 10020 63192 23.92% 0.10% – 2011/12 262144 52336 19.96% 0.19% 9123 987 10110 62446 23.82% 0.26% – 2010/11 259189 51244 19.77% 0.14% 9042 787 9829 61073 23.56% 0.13% – 2009/10 257445 50527 19.63% 0.18% 9352 439 9791 60318 23.43% 0.21% – 2008/09 258314 50244 19.45% -1.53% 9315 430 9745 59989 23.22% 2.24% – 2007/08 261607 54895 20.98% 0.43% – – – 54895 20.98% 0.43% 7315 2006/07 263261 54099 20.55% 0.65% – – – 54099 20.55% 0.65% 5085 2005/06 265724 52867 19.90% 0.37% – – – 52867 19.90% 0.37% 6349 2004/05 270311 52792 19.53% 0.87% – – – 52792 19.53% 0.87% 6662 2003/04 273961 51131 18.66% – – – – 51131 18.66% – 8930 Middle (All-ages) Number of Middle (All-ages) school pupils in Welsh-medium education (Pupil Level Annual School Census) School year Total pupils Welsh-medium only Bilingual-medium Any form of WM Welsh medium Welsh-medium as % of total* % change* Bilingual - AB Bilingual - BB Bilingual - CB Total Bilingual-education* % of total* % change* Any form of Welsh-medium* % of total* % change* 2021/22 22516 5546 25% -0.46% 2527 1354 794 4675 21% -0.29% 10221 45% 0.17% 2020/21 22308 5392 24% 0.59% 2553 1331 812 4696 21% 2.52% 10088 45% 1.93% 2019/20 20746 5137 25% -4.21% 2494 1350 – 3844 19% -0.31% 8981 43% 3.90% 2018/19 17661 3630 21% 4.81% 1992 1335 – 3327 19% -8.29% 6957 39% -13.10% 2017/18 12153 3082 25% -7.37% 1951 1346 – 3297 27% -1.23% 6379 52% 6.14% 2016/17 9163 1648 18% 10.59% 1253 1346 – 2599 28% -7.46% 4247 46% -18.05% 2015/16 5371 1535 29% -17.82% 520 1404 – 1924 36% -9.36% 3459 64% 8.46% 2014/15 4376 471 11% 3.10% 544 1433 – 1977 45% 14.52% 2448 56% 11.42% 2013/14 3542 491 14% 1.27% – 1086 – 1086 31% 1.00% 1577 45% -0.26% 2012/13 3648 552 15% -15.13% – 1082 – 1082 30% 29.66% 1634 45% 44.79% Secondary Number of Secondary school pupils in Welsh-medium education (Pupil Level Annual School Census) School year Total pupils Welsh-medium only Bilingual-education Any form of WM Welsh medium Welsh-medium as % of total* % change* Bilingual - AB Bilingual - BB Bilingual - CB Bilingual - CH Total Bilingual-education* % of total* % change* Some form of Welsh-medium* % of total* % change* 2021/22 175957 16156 9% 0.06% 7988 8951 2189 – 19128 11% 0.08% 35284 20.05% 0.14% 2020/21 174133 15879 9% 0.18% 8837 8769 1189 – 18795 11% -0.42% 34674 19.91% -0.24% 2019/20 171271 15305 9% -0.02% 8692 8622 1896 – 19210 11% -0.36% 34515 20.15% -0.37% 2018/19 170277 15242 9% 0.27% 9143 8658 1905 – 19706 12% 0.57% 34948 20.52% 0.84% 2017/18 172218 14954 9% 0.20% 7829 8677 2446 – 18952 11% -0.52% 33906 19.69% -0.33% 2016/17 174812 14832 8% 0.81% 8885 8733 2536 – 20154 12% -0.61% 34986 20.01% 0.20% 2015/16 178669 13713 8% -1.50% 10283 8858 2545 – 21686 12% 1.31% 35399 19.81% -0.19% 2014/15 182408 16728 9% -0.20% 6139 9485 2515 1618 19757 11% 0.14% 36485 20.00% -0.06% 2013/14 186427 17462 9% -1.18% 5411 10905 2031 1591 19938 11% 1.53% 37400 20.06% 0.36% 2012/13 191279 20164 11% -1.12% 4802 7819 4907 – 17528 9% -0.01% 37692 19.71% -1.13% 2011/12 198015 23098 12% 0.22% 3770 7522 6872 – 18164 9% -0.14% 41262 20.84% 0.08% 2010/11 201230 23033 11% -0.71% 3798 7787 7146 – 18731 9% 0.17% 41764 20.75% -0.55% 2009/10 203907 24791 12% -8.25% 2755 7238 7903 745 18641 9% 43432 21.30% 0.90% 2008/09 205421 41916 20% 0.71% – – – – – – – 41916 20.40% 0.71% 2007/08 206936 40756 20% 0.35% – – – – – – – 40756 19.69% 0.35% 2006/07 210353 40702 19% 0.19% – – – – – – – 40702 19.35% 0.19% 2005/06 213045 40828 19% 0.42% – – – – – – – 40828 19.16% 0.42% 2004/05 214626 40221 19% 0.11% – – – – – – – 40221 18.74% 0.11% 2003/04 215609 40169 19% – – – – – – – 40169 18.63%

References

New table 2

Primary

Number of pupils in primary school classes by Welsh category (Pupil Level Annual School Census)

School year	Welsh-medium (main)	Welsh-medium (minor)
2021–22	59,305	3,480
2020–21	60,770	3,760
2019–20	60,555	3,735
2018–19	61,260	3,485
2017–18	61,665	4,160
2016–17	61,390	4,370
2015–16	60,725	4,700
2014–15	60,615	4,335
2013–14	58,985	3,510
2012–13	57,430	3,705
2011–12	56,785	3,120
2010–11	55,235	2,915
2009–10	54,120	3,110
2008–09	53,480	4,475
2007–08	53,820	3,185
2006–07	53,340	845
2005–06	53,235	1,075
2004–05	52,855	1,685
2003–04	52,065	2,360

Middle

Number of pupils in middle (all-ages) school classes by Welsh category (Pupil Level Annual School Census)

School year	Welsh-medium (main)	Welsh-medium (minor)
2021–22	8,185	535
2020–21	7,905	685
2019–20	7,350	580
2018–19	5,245	850
2017–18	5,045	715
2016–17	3,025	480
2015–16	2,225	520
2014–15	1,360	575
2013–14	870	365
2012–13	765	220

Secondary

Number of pupils in secondary school classes by Welsh category (Pupil Level Annual School Census)

School year	Welsh-medium (main)	Welsh-medium (minor)
2021–22	23,225	5,985
2020–21	22,715	5,905
2019–20	22,065	7,780
2018–19	22,990	7,165
2017–18	22,440	7,570
2016–17	22,045	6,820
2015–16	22,460	8,800
2014–15	22,670	7,065
2013–14	24,805	4,980
2012–13	24,330	5,595
2011–12	24,115	6,995
2010–11	23,410	7,530
2009–10	24,010	7,380
2008–09	23,210	6,950
2007–08	22,935	7,330
2006–07	24,320	2,935
2005–06	24,500	2,595
2004–05	24,245	2,090
2003–04	26,290	2,265

References

New table discussion

Add comments or changes below here. DankJae 21:15, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

@DankJae: I agree that the number of columns needs to be cut down a bit, and I just found a dataset that would be very helpful in doing so. This dataset groups each of the 3 education levels into 4 groups:

1. Welsh is the sole or main medium of instruction
2. Welsh is used as a teaching medium for part of the curriculum (i.e. less than half)
3. Welsh is taught as a second language only
4. No Welsh is used or taught

We'll only have to include groups 1 and 2 in the table because they are the only Welsh-medium groups. – Treetoes023 (talk) 22:01, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

Courtesy ping: DankJae – My original reply didn't ping you for some reason so I'm pinging you again. – Treetoes023 (talk) 22:09, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

@Treetoes023:, thanks for the better source, wish I found it before, but I've made it as a table above. DankJae 23:27, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

@DankJae: Nice! I can added the percentage stuff tomorrow (in like 10 hours, tomorrow for me, 14:00 today Wikipedia time). – Treetoes023 (talk) 04:10, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

Many thanks to DankJae for doing this. DankJae, you wonder if the columns with asterisks would constitute synth. I don't think simple arithmetic calculations from a single dataset are synth, so they could stay, but as per the suggestion that the tables may need reduction, they don't necessarily have to stay. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 07:16, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

​@Sirfurboy: I just finished making tables using the tables DankJae created as a blueprint. I decided to only include the Welsh-medium as % of the total students and not the percent change to reduce the tables a bit. I kept the % of total because it ties to the Welsh government's goal of having 30% of pupils in Welsh-medium education by 2031 and 40% by 2050. I think that the tables are ready to go back onto the article, unless anyone has any suggestions or questions. btw the tables I made are here → User:Treetoes023/stuff. – Treetoes023 (talk) 01:52, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for this. I think these look good and happy for them to go back in the article. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 07:09, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

@Sirfurboy: Okay, I'll put them back in. – Treetoes023 (talk) 16:09, 24 July 2023 (UTC)