Talk:Watchmen (TV series)/Archive 1

Archive 1

Loosely based on or Inspired on instead of Based on

It was established that this series its an original story loosely inspired on the Watchmen comic series. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Drumerwritter (talk • contribs) 21:38, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

Mime & Marionette

The cast section includes unsourced claims that Tom Mison has been cast as "Marcos Maez / Mime" and Sara Vickers as "Erika Manson / Marionette". I recognize them as characters from DC's Doomsday Clock storyline, but my understanding is that HBO hasn't indicated that they're adapting any source material other than the original comic. Looks like some "eager beaver" is making assumptions about potential characters in the series. I'd edit it myself but my Wikipedia days are over.

- Ope tha God — Preceding unsigned comment added by 100.36.158.149 (talk) 12:27, 28 February 2019 (UTC)

The Television Critics Association panel 2019 Damon Lindelof. Add info to Article ?

Damon Lindelof revealed lots of huge details on Watchmen's Television Critics Association panel.

1) Much of Lindelof's inspiration for Watchmen came from reading the works of Ta-Nehisi Coates and learning about Black Wall Street and the Tulsa race riots of 1921. In fact, Watchmen takes place in Tulsa, Oklahoma in the Watchmen alternate universe's version of 2019.

2) Nixon ended up being president until his death in 1988, who was then succeeded by Gerald Ford. In 92, Ford lost the election to Robert Redford, who's still president in 2019. 2019 of Watchmen is a world where cops wear masks, Ozymandias is in seclusion, a very liberal Robert Redford is the longest serving POTUS ever, there are no Internet or smartphones and a killer cult has grown up around the dead Rorschach. . 3) There’s also a white supremacist group that calls themselves “The Seventh Calvary” running around in Rorschach masks. Lindelof said that gets at the one of the main themes of his series: Appropriation. “We understand that we’re appropriating the original ‘Watchmen.’ Characters in this show are appropriating iconic ideas like the Rorschach mask,” he continued. “The idea that the Seventh Cavalry, who seem to be presenting a white supremacist ideology in the pilot, have appropriated Rorschach based on his writings, as a white supremacist. Rorschach is dead, he’s not around to basically say, ‘You got it all wrong.'”.

4) “We reexplore the past but it’s canon,” he says. “Everything that happened in those 12 issues could not be messed with. We were married to it. There is no rebooting it.

5) White supremacy is at the forefront of the story. “What in 2019 is the equivalent of the nuclear standoff between the Americans and the Russians?” Lindelof posited. “It is race and the police. ... There are no easy answers and grandiose solutions. In a traditional superhero movie, superheroes fight the aliens. There’s no defeating white supremacy. It’s not going away.”

6) “We’ve created a world that does not have an internet,” Lindelof said. “People do not have smart phones. Even though it’s set in 2019, the Redford administration saw the writing on the wall and stepped in to make sure we could not troll each other.”

7) The series will feature Regina King’s first on-screen sex scene.

8) “Whether or not the show feels like its ‘Watchmen’ is in the eye of the beholder,” he said Wednesday during the show’s panel at the Television Critics Association press tour. “Some people who have an intense relationship with the source material might say, ‘This feels like ‘Watchmen’ to me,’ [while] others might say, ‘this is an aberration and I wish it never existed.'”

9) Lindelof also described going through “an intense period of terror of f-king it up” when he was crafting the idea for the show. “I had an intense amount of respect for this but at the same time I feel like that respect could impair me from doing my job… I had to separate myself a little bit from this incredible reverence, because if I was too reverent, I wouldn’t be able to do anything that was risky.”

10) “Alan Moore is a genius. In my opinion, the greatest writer in the comic medium and maybe one of the greatest writers of all time. He’s made it very clear that he doesn’t want to have any affiliation or association with ‘Watchmen’ ongoing and that we not use his name to get people to watch it, which I want to respect,” Lindelof said. “I have made personal overtures to connect with him and explain to him a little bit of what we were doing and he made it clear that he didn’t want that to happen and I want to respect that as well.”

11) Damon Lindelof- “I do feel like the spirit of Alan Moore is a punk rock spirit, a rebellious spirit, and that if you would tell Alan Moore, a teenage Moore in ’85 or ’86, ‘You’re not allowed to do this because Superman’s creator or Swamp Thing’s creator doesn’t want you to do it,’ he would say, ‘F— you, I’m doing it anyway.’ So I’m channeling the spirit of Alan Moore to tell Alan Moore, ‘F— you, I’m doing it anyway.'”

12) Lindelof is asking that critics/viewers give Watchmen the entire season before assessing its approach to race, police and how different it is from the source material.

Add info to Article ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Brownshoes22 (talk • contribs) 20:57, 26 July 2019 (UTC)

References

3-Column Format?

What's up with this? It's terribly difficult to read like that. Is there a purpose for this? I didn't want to change it just in case there was some reason that I don't know about. Cjmartin65 (talk) 00:00, 17 September 2019 (UTC)

Nevermind. I couldn't stand it. I fixed the formatting. Cjmartin65 (talk) 00:04, 17 September 2019 (UTC)

Setting

The Watchmen TV Series takes place in Tulsa, Oklahoma in the Watchmen alternate universe's of 2019; one with no Internet or smartphones and Robert Redford is the longest serving President of the United States starting in 1992, 34 years after the comic book series ends. After white supremacist group that calls themselves “The Seventh Calvary” wearing home made Rorschach masks do simultaneous attacks on the houses of polices, all the members of the Police department start wearing masks. Brownshoes22 (talk) 01:05, 30 July 2019 (UTC) --Brownshoes22 (talk) 01:10, 30 July 2019 (UTC)

Add to Article ?--Brownshoes22 (talk) 01:13, 30 July 2019 (UTC)

In this comment and the main article, there is reference to "The Seventh Calvary". Calvary (or Golgotha) is stated as the place where Jesus was crucified. Should this not be amended to "The Seventh Cavalry" - the correct spelling for mounted troops - (pending resolution of the Cavalry/Kavalry question)? Oberon3D (talk) 14:16, 21 October 2019 (UTC)

Nearly all the sources talking of the episode today use "Cavalry", with some using the K variation. Until there's more clarity on the C vs K, I've switched it to "Cavalry". --Masem (t) 14:31, 21 October 2019 (UTC)

References

About starring cast order

According to MOS:TVCAST which states The cast listing should be ordered according to the original broadcast credits, with new cast members being added to the end of the list. Jean Smart should be at the bottom of the starring cast list because she didn't appeared and wasn’t credited until "She Was Killed by Space Junk" (episode 3). — YoungForever^(talk) 14:18, 5 November 2019 (UTC)

That would be the correct interpretation of the MOSTV guideline for cast order.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 14:46, 6 November 2019 (UTC)

Update: Hong Chau is now at the bottom of the starring cast list as she has appeared and is credited as part of the main cast on "If You Don't Like My Story, Write Your Own" (episode 4) and while Jean Smart is now second to last. — YoungForever^(talk) 09:16, 11 November 2019 (UTC)

Audience/User Ratings

This page says user/audience ratings can not be included yet the shows Dark and Chernobyl include user ratings on their pages as well as The Shawshank Redemption. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:981:C200:1230:2044:941E:6B42:C88 (talk) 20:41, 7 November 2019 (UTC)

Can's speak to Dark or Chernobyl, but for Shawshank, it has been noted by reliable sources that the movie has dominated the user-voted #1 at IMDb for a long time. Thus, it is valid to provide that information given others have commented about it. In the case of Watchmen, the best we have on user reviewes are reliable sources talking about review bombing, so that can be included, but that's as far as that needs to be said. --Masem (t) 20:59, 7 November 2019 (UTC)

Please read up MOS:TVRECEPTION and WP:UGC. — YoungForever^(talk) 21:35, 7 November 2019 (UTC)

It seems obvious that the Rotten Tomatoes "Audience Score" for this show (now at 42 percent, as of November 12, 2019) cannot be included on the page for political reasons. I would not have guessed that Wikipedia would fall prey to censorship, "protecting" readers from the unpopular Audience Score of 42 percent. - Slowmusketeer (talk) 19:13, 12 November 2019 (UTC)

@Slowmusketeer: It's not about censorship. There are guidelines and policies on Wikipedia. Audience/User Ratings are not reliable because they are user-generated content. They are not professional reviewers. — YoungForever^(talk) 19:41, 12 November 2019 (UTC)

Audience/Critic ratings mean very little and do not affect the Nielsen ratings or a shows renewal/cancelation odds. But per WP:UGC user ratings cannot be added to the page. I really wish people would take the hint rather than getting into pointless discussions like on the Batwoman page. No one is censoring anything and no one really cares about what someones politics are on here. Guidelines are guidelines and must be followed. Esuka (talk) 19:57, 12 November 2019 (UTC)

@YoungForever: I disagree. Everyone knows what the Audience Score is, and everyone knows that the "professional reviewers" are just people from the audience who apply to Rotten Tomatoes for that designation (of professional reviewer); the vast majority of those reviewers do not work as critics for newspapers. You or I could just as easily get that designation. Only including the Critic Consensus is misleading Wikipedia readers. - Slowmusketeer (talk) 20:05, 12 November 2019 (UTC)

We don't make the rules, we simply follow. If you want to see audience ratings included on the page I suggest you go about attempting to change the guidelines. That would result in a lengthy discussion I'm sure. Esuka (talk) 20:25, 12 November 2019 (UTC)

@Esuka: I have not read the Batwoman page. Audience and Critic ratings are estimates of popular opinion, and many people look at these to decide whether or not to watch a show or take these "scores" into account to estimate a show's quality. You are being dismissive and it is not convincing to me. - Slowmusketeer (talk) 20:11, 12 November 2019 (UTC)

No they really aren't. For example Mr. Robot is one of the most acclaimed shows on television but has been low rated for pretty much its entire run. There are 1000s of examples of very low rated but universally acclaimed shows on television. Take HBO, they have an entire library of beloved but low rated shows. Acclaim means nothing for ratings. Esuka (talk) 20:21, 12 November 2019 (UTC)

The problem with any site that allows user-submitted reviews or even just scores is that they can be gamed either way in part due to anonymity whereas the whole of professional reviewers are not going to game their own reviews in the same manner. Most RSes ignore user-generated scores and reviews because they give hardly anything of use for proper reception of a work. --Masem (t) 20:55, 12 November 2019 (UTC)

Separate episode articles

I am going to wait to judge coverage of episodes individually until after the next one (3rd) but I think there's a good likelihood each is individually notable, between episode reviews and production stuff (eg there's the THR article today on part of Lord's play + more.) --Masem (t) 03:10, 28 October 2019 (UTC)

I am tentatively agreeing with Masem. It seems each episode might turn out to be individually notable. Here's one review of the second episode [1], and one for its premiere episode [2]. I think this series may have significance because it is centered on a central issue of our time, at least in the U.S. And this is accomplished by moving the story line ahead to 2019, along with flashbacks. Steve Quinn (talk) 06:04, 2 November 2019 (UTC)

Here is some background material [3]. It was released by the series creators or HBO or something like that. I lost the article I was reading that linked to it. The background material is on HBO's URL, so there is a connection of some kind. I will try to find that article again. As an aside, there seems to be a lot of RS available on the show itself. Steve Quinn (talk) 06:17, 2 November 2019 (UTC)

Ep5 definitely had enough sourcing for it between production and reviews so I've started its article Little Fear of Lightning. The others probably can to at this point. Remember to keep plots on these pages to under 700 words. --Masem (t) 16:39, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

Time to move Don Johnson to "Guest Star"?

I get that he was listed as a star and featured prominently in the trailer, but, may it please the court, it's becoming increasingly clear that that was an intentional hoax to make his sudden death near the end of the first episode more unexpected. - Immigrant laborer (talk) 04:01, 13 November 2019 (UTC)

If he was listed at any point in the starring cast, he stays there. We've seen this show plays with flashbacks, so he certainly can reappear in later episodes. --Masem (t) 04:11, 13 November 2019 (UTC)

And especially w/ ep 6's preview... --Masem (t) 16:40, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

Vigilantes?

There are a few characters, such as Sister Night, Looking Glass, and Red Scare who are described in this particle as vigilantes, but they're really not. They're police officers, not private citizens, and like the other officers, they disguise their identity. They differ in that they have, for lack of better terms, a schtick.

We know they're not considered vigilantes within the fictional world because the vigilante hunters of the FBI don't go after them. Instead, the FBI works with them the way they might with any local police. For this reason, I suggest we call them costumed police officers, if we need to distinguish them from the regular cops who are masked with yellow balaclavas or scarves but otherwise wear police uniforms. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.197.116.79 (talk) 01:54, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

I went ahead and made a couple of changes after confirming that the cited sources did not refer to the costumed police officers as vigilantes. I left the term alone wherever it applied, of course.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.197.116.79 (talk) 21:27, 23 November 2019 (UTC)

On Cal's line in the cast list

At least with Ep7's airing, we should not identify Cal as equivalent to Dr. Manhatten (though I've seen the rumors that it looks like the same actor that may be playing him in Ep 8, at which point we can add that). As best we can tell up to Ep7 without synthesis, Abdul-Mateen played the character of Cal, who we know had something in his head based on Dr. Manhattan, but it's not clear Cal was aware he was Dr. Manhattan. At this point, we know Cal was just a human shell with this device in his head. We may learn more next week. --Masem (t) 04:41, 2 December 2019 (UTC)

Well, now with this from Lindelof [4] I am pretty sure we can assert this now. Will add myself. --Masem (t) 15:10, 2 December 2019 (UTC)

Alan Moore's Rorschach quote

Apparently the original source for that one is a video interview he gave to LeJorne Pindling of Street Law Productions back in 2008, so it might be better to verify and cite that rather than a 2019 article quoting it.

ZoeB (talk) 11:56, 7 December 2019 (UTC)

As long as the source requoting it is considered an RS (where as the original source doesn't appear to be) , we're find using the re-quote. --Masem (t) 14:02, 7 December 2019 (UTC)

Doyle or Abar

Angela's three kids are listed here as "Doyle", which is the surname of their deceased biological father. If they're just being fostered, then this is probably correct. However, HBO's site says "Topher Abar" is their adopted son: https://www.hbo.com/watchmen/cast-and-crew/topher-abar. I'm not sure if Emma and Rosie are adopted, though. IMDB lists "Emma Abar" but no last name for "Rosie": https://www.imdb.com/title/tt7049682/fullcredits. Where would we be able to find an authoritative source here? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.197.116.79 (talk) 05:01, 26 November 2019 (UTC)

IMDb is not a reliable source! I would say go by the official HBO website. — YoungForever^(talk) 01:45, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

HBO is more reliable, but it's also incomplete. It confirms Topher is an Abar but is silent about the other two kids. But here's more proof that all three are Abars: https://www.instagram.com/adelynnspoon/?hl=en, https://www.instagram.com/itslilyrosesmith/?hl=en

That's enough to persuade me. 68.197.116.79 (talk)

The Instagrams of the two child actresses are not reliable sources because their accounts are not verified with a check mark. — YoungForever^(talk) 03:51, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

The show credits don't mention their last name, but HBO's site confirms that their brother Topher's last name is Abar, not Doyle, and multiple sources refer to all three as adopted. There is no reason to think that he changed his last name but they didn't, and no source even suggests it.

Moreover, we have a variety of sources specifically confirming that one or both of the girls are named Abar. This includes their own Instagram accounts, which post exclusive pictures and have tens of thousands of followers, and sites like this:

• https://tv.apple.com/us/show/watchmen/umc.cmc.4i6rlj629sgiel4bw9ta7oyxt
• https://www.cinemablend.com/television/2424741/hbos-watchmen-tv-show-an-updated-cast-list
• https://www.charlotteobserver.com/entertainment/tv/article236661683.html
• https://amp.kansascity.com/news/local/article156903184.html
• https://comicbook.com/dc/2018/08/09/watchmen-tv-series-hbo-cast-lily-rose-smith-dylan-schombing/
• https://spectrumlocalnews.com/nc/charlotte/news/2019/10/23/in-depth--young-charlotte-native-guest-stars-in-hbo-s--watchmen-

This looks like an open and shut case to me. 68.197.116.79 (talk) 01:39, 29 November 2019 (UTC)

I would just list both. It's not clear what they go by now, since both names are used reliably, and we know why they have that name issue (their biological parents died at White Night, the Abars adopted them). --Masem (t) 01:42, 29 November 2019 (UTC)

I just noticed that YoungForever tried to remove Topher's last name, citing MOS:TVCAST, but then someone undid that. It turns out that the policy does not say what YF thinks it says. Specifically, "All names should be referred to as credited, or by common name supported by a reliable source." I'd say that HBO is a reliable source for the names of characters in HBO shows, as is Apple's TV site and those newspapers.

As for the fact that their surname used to be Doyle, I don't see anything wrong with mentioning it in parentheses, like "Topher (Doyle) Abar", but I'm not particularly inclined to do that, just because no source does and it's not really that important. 68.197.116.79 (talk) 01:50, 29 November 2019 (UTC)

FYI, I said we go by how they are credited which is All names should be referred to as credited, or by common name supported by a reliable source. on MOS:TVCAST. In addition, when I removed that there wasn't a reliable source to your claims. — YoungForever^(talk) 23:26, 10 January 2020 (UTC)

Spoilers in Cast?

There are unnecessary spoilers in the Cast and Characters section. For example it states that Calvin Abar is a form of Dr. Manhattan and that Trieu's daughter is actually her clone. I am 4 episodes into the series and this has not yet been established. These are unnecessary spoilers and rather frustrating. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.8.120.201 (talk • contribs)

See WP:SPOILERS - we do not use spoiler warnings nor hide material that has been aired in wide broadcast yet. --Masem (t) 23:03, 5 December 2019 (UTC)

Wikipedia contains spoilers and they are inevitable. Removing spoilers is considered to be disruptive editing. — YoungForever^(talk) 23:33, 5 December 2019 (UTC)

The issue is not that spoilers exist, but that they are in the Cast and Characters section. A user wishing to read about casting information will be exposed to spoilers. Spoilers should exist in Plot Sections or in Episode Summaries, not in the Cast and Characters section. I have had two major plot details spoiled simply because I wanted to see who plays a character. Information about major plot points should not exist in a section regarding casting as is the case on all other Wikipedia pages regarding TV Series/Films that I have encountered (read: thousands). wikipedia pages — Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.8.120.201 (talk • contribs) —Preceding undated comment added 18:31, 6 December 2019 (UTC)

I agree, I think it's good practice not to WP:SURPRISE readers about major plot points in the 'Cast' section.--Pharos (talk) 18:40, 16 December 2019 (UTC)

The problem with have with this show is that we have a few actors playing parts that need to be documented in the cast list but which I would be aware of would be called a spoiler (namely, Cal's identity and who Will really is). There is some element of not revealing too much, but at the end of the day, the encyclopedic functionality of providing information is more important than hiding info away because it may be a spoiler (the whole point of WP:SPOILER. --Masem (t) 19:09, 16 December 2019 (UTC)

I feel like there should be a better way to represent this, maybe a subsection alongside 'Main', 'Recurring', 'Guest starring', something like 'Character revelations'.--Pharos (talk) 01:11, 17 December 2019 (UTC)

I think that sounds fair.Halbared (talk) 19:59, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

I'm surprised anyone wants to keep spoilers here. The contested wording only ruins the show for those who haven't seen it yet. Why is this controversial? Illdave (talk) 17:27, 27 December 2019 (UTC)illdave

See WP:SPOILER. Once something has aired we do not take steps to hide spoilers, particularly for highly relevant casting details, like Yahya playing both Cal and Dr M. --Masem (t) 22:11, 27 December 2019 (UTC)

WP:SPOILER is not a license to troll, or to ignore all other good judgement either. The spoiler policy only explains that there is no need for spoiler warnings, that an encyclopedia must not exclude the information and should include the information somewhere (usually the plot section) not that the first sentence of the lead should explain what "Rosebud" means. Spoiler does not trump good clear writing, and it is good writing to explain things in the order they happen. A good cast section should at least introduce the character first then in another sentence explain what happens later. An encyclopedia should include the information somewhere, but it should also present the information in a way that is helpful to readers. -- 109.79.178.97 (talk) 11:24, 8 November 2021 (UTC)

Ratings table

The table is looking a little empty and theres a reason for that. Some episodes couldn't be sourced with Live+7 and there's only one further one that could be. Would people be okay with a combined Live+7 and Live+3 to fill in the blanks? There are Live+3 numbers for every episode. Or should I just source the remaining Live+7 episode that can be and leave the rest of the fields as n/a? Esuka (talk) 00:33, 11 January 2020 (UTC)