Talk:Warren National University/Archive 7

Archive 1

←

Archive 5

Archive 6

Archive 7

Archived Discussions

We wanted to ensure you knew there are three archives of discussion available for you to peruse at your leisure.

Please see the yellow file cabinet box to the right and above this section to read each of the archives.

Below are the table of contents for each of the archives.

Rkowalke 13:10, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Archive Number	Section Number	Section Title	Section Number	Section Title
Archive 3	1	New Approach to the WNU page	2	Plagiarism
	3	WNU Baseline Initial Proposal	4	"an undercover student who lied on her resume provided to then KWU"
	5	Article is making progress	6	Plagiarism Checker
	7	accreditation
Archive 2	1	Diploma mill claims	2	From a FAQ - States where it is illegal
	3	Faculty Section plus miscellaneous (plagiarism)	4	Academic section
	5	Unverified source stated some info on accreditation	6	Academics
	7	Defamation	8	Properly sourced relevant information
	9	Campus, Location, Site, etc...	10	Rkowalke's Assault on Reliable Sources
	11	Conflict of Interest...	12	Online Forum Reference
	13	GAO Investigation	14	Table of restrictions
	15	Cited references do not support statement.	16	Accreditation section
	17	duplicate paragraph	18	New comments by Rkowalke on 22 September 2007
	19	Mediation Request Cancelled	20	Calm Down
	21	Proposals for Specific Changes & Discussion	22	Proposed GAO Section
	22.1	GAO Investigation	22.2	References
	23	Proposed GAO Paragraph	24	Infobox
	25	Accreditation Paragraph Quotes...	26	Diploma mill link
	27	Final Outside View
Archive 1	1	Another KWU student wished to add this	2	An individual's view
	3	In response to the auditor	3.1	Student opinions
	4	Question for A Satisfied KWU Graduate	5	Comment followed by a Personal Question for 69.44.27.189
	6	The "unaccredited status" section is a POV-fest	7	Auditor response to Keryst
	8	KWU Does not stand up to outside scrutiny	9	Refactor of Unaccreditted Status section is complete
	10	KWU offering degrees in Oregon / California?	11	Note to Thue
	12	Lobbying?	13	Incorrect statement
	13.1	Disagreement here	14	Best Practices
	15	No idea who	16	KW will need accreditation
	17	The Oregon Issue	18	KWU is in the Better Business Bureau
	19	More information on Kennedy Western	20	Kennsdy Western is a Privately Licensed School
	21	Wyoming Law Change Links	22	Accredited, unaccredited, or non of the above
	23	Good balance, but BBB is silly	24	Kennedy-Western University
	25	I worked at Kennedy-Western University	26	Do not belive the above negative POV
	27	KWU now = Warren National University?	28	Dateline July 1, 2006: KW Applys for Accreditation.
	29	KWU New Name	30	Answer to Engineering Questions
	31	To me, KWU qualifies as a diploma mill	32	Just another point of view
	33	Still Another Point of View	34	Something Strange?
	35	Senate Testimony - KWU Master's Degree in Engineering	36	Finally, the announcement!!!!
	37	KWU Graduate Comment:	38	Statement from an unregistered editor
	39	A point of contention	40	Where To Next ????
	41	Where is it illegal?	42	Academics section of article
	43	Note to 64.203.165.125 (aka Bnmoore143, Bnmoore)	44	Incorrect Statement Regarding Utility of KWU Degree
	45	Note Below Message	46	Reverted Bnmoore Edits

Public Accreditation Notice

Below is the link for the above information. Interesting reading to say the least, especially for past students.

http://www.wnuedu.com/PublicAccreditationNotice.asp —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ricschw (talk • contribs) 07:30, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

The visit to WNU is happening now through Wednesday. Regards, TallMagic (talk) 15:16, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Somethings going on

http://chronicle.com/news/article/5058/a-mysterious-silence-emanates-from-warren-national-u

http://www.montanasnewsstation.com/Global/story.asp?S=8897104

I don't see anything here that really requires an article update, yet. Perhaps it is just the same issue that prompted the downgrade by the BBB? In other words, probably the same stuff that is showing up on WNU on the http://www.ripoffreport.com/ [1] website? (Note: this site is definitely not a reliable source. I mention it only as a likely example of what may be going on.)

Anyway, keep an eye open for developments that may require an article update. TallMagic (talk) 23:56, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

---

I think the site should be updated for its current status (Not open for business)

Captinron (talk) 14:49, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

I am tending to agree with you at this point. On the other hand, since the office apparently isn't talking there's no way to know if it is permanent or how long it is going to last. It has been almost a month now. This is longer than I thought. Perhaps I'll ponder on this a bit longer, any other opinions? Regards, TallMagic (talk) 15:46, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

I added the announcement of the suspension to the history section of the article, since that is important information that is supported by sources. --Orlady (talk) 15:49, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

It looks good to me. Thank you for your wp:boldness. :-) Regards, TallMagic (talk) 17:07, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

---

WNU has taken their website offline for some reason. http://www.wnuedu.com/ TallMagic (talk) 05:49, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Currently it says "IMPORTANT NOTICE: www.wnuedu.com server is down for emergency maintenance." --Orlady (talk) 13:13, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

It was down for a few days. I too read the maintenance message. Unless the website maintainers are incompetent, there's no reason to bring a website down for multiple days for maintenance, not even for emergency maintenance. It seems more likely that WNU is going through some kind of major turmoil. For example, perhaps they decided for some reason that the current website was so unacceptable that they couldn't allow access while they rebuilt it. I just thought that it might be a good idea to try and watch it in case an update to the article is needed. Regards, TallMagic (talk) 17:22, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

This is final validation of the true situation of Kennedy Western/Warren National. Also evidence of the lack of value of the degree. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.244.160.208 (talk) 11:34, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure whether your comment is arguing that KWU degrees have been overvalued or undervalued but I definitely agree with the sentiment that having an independent third party in-depth evaluation of KWU/WNU for the first time in history will be telling and informative. On the other hand, the fact remains that an independent evaluation/investigation by the GAO concluded that KWU was below standard. So in my opinion even though that investigation was not as in-depth it means that even if the currently ongoing evaluation concludes that WNU is currently up to accreditation standards, the fact remains that the GAO investigation indicated that KWU was not up to academic standards at that point in time. Regards, TallMagic (talk) 19:33, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

This is incorrect. The website is still up. As for the GAO witch hunt it can be considered a Non Sequitur, as it pertained only to the use of government funds for procurement of education by government employees and nothing more. 75.31.249.134 (talk) 19:27, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

The WNU website was down and up and down and up as was reported. The GAO investigation was interpreted and reported on by probably dozens of reliable sources, not a single one of those interpretations seems to agree with your interpretation. Of course, I would be delighted if you would kindly produce the references that would prove me wrong. Regards, TallMagic (talk) 21:57, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Your honor, may I submit as evidence the fact that during this so-called investigation not one representative of the University, no student or graduate was allowed to speak on its behalf. We also note that this investigation was for the sole purpose of determining how US Government funds were being used to finance eduction for government employees. This was not for the purpose of determining if Warren National, then known as Kennedy Western is "legimate' or otherwise.

Historically we have seen government investigations which were one sided and which arrived at forgone conclusions. Perhaps the best are the investigations by the House un-American activities committee headed by Senator Joseph McCarthy. As skewed and convoluted this investigation was, it could at least be said that the defendants in this case had a chance to answer charges. Could students and graduates of Warren National be said to have the same rights? Where is the justice for these students, some of whom spent thousands of their own dollars and invested time and effort receive and education?

The defense rests your honor. 99.141.49.231 (talk) 16:30, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

Thank for the entertaining, well thought out comment. The purpose of Wikipedia is to provide information that is supported by reliable sources. Wikipedia can't be used for presenting original research. There is no judge or need to discuss the validity of the GAO investigation. What is relevant to Wikipedia is information that is found and verifiable. In other words, The most convincing argument that can be made on Wikipedia is providing reference to the supporting wp:reliable sources that supports whatever position it is that one wishes to make here. Regards, TallMagic (talk) 22:03, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

WNU, KWU, and sources for the article

Although it is in the archives now, the Senate Investigation of Kennedy-Western did have information from Kennedy-Western employees, a student (albeit undercover), and the University itself presented information that showed:

A) They only had 1 faculty member out of 120 or so employees. B) They granted 55% of graduate degrees for unverified life experience. C) The undercover student was able to complete 40% of a masters in an unknown subject in 16 hours.

All verifiable facts. I am not sure of the source of your speculation on why Kennedy-Western was investigated by the Senate, but I think it is laid out pretty directly in the introduction.

BOGUS DEGREES AND UNMET EXPECTATIONS: ARE TAXPAYER DOLLARS SUBSIDIZING DIPLOMA MILLS? TUESDAY, MAY 11, 2004

"Good morning. In hearings today and tomorrow the Committee on Governmental Affairs will explore the problems that unaccredited, substandard colleges and universities, often referred to as diploma mills, pose to the Federal Government and to private-sector employers. Three years ago I became concerned by what appeared to be a proliferation of schools advertising degrees either for no work whatsoever or for only a nominal or token effort. At that time I served as Chairman of the Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations, and I asked the General Accounting Office to look into this problem. The GAO queried a government-sponsored database that included approximately 450,000 resumes to determine how many individuals listed degrees from diploma mills. The results were disturbing. GAO found more than 1,200 resumes that included degrees from 14 different diploma mills. The GAO used a list of diploma mills compiled by the Oregon State Office of Degree Authorization which at that time included 43 schools. Now that list has grown to 137."

Captinron (talk) 18:21, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

55%? Where does it state that??? If this was EVER the truth thatn its not true now. Maybe there is one full time faculty member at that time. But Warren National does have a sizable number of part time faculty members, all of whome are instructors at respected institutions. And that nonsense about completing 40% of acedemic work in 16 hours is absurd. If it were true than that student was either cheating or found some way to trick the system.

This old "investigation" (which I would describe as a witch hunt) is little more than an attempt by biased individuals to reach a forgone conclusion.

Now if you were to ask me if the taxpayer's money was wasted I would definately say yes. This entire investigation was a waste. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.141.50.53 (talk • contribs) 6 January 2009

Hi Anon, welcome to Wikipedia. If you are interested in editting Wikipedia articles then I suggest that you may find advantages to creating a logon account. You may also find it useful or interesting to visit the wp:welcome page. Regards, TallMagic (talk) 22:08, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Hi Anon, it is all documented in great detail in the Senate Hearing, you should read it, the full text is available online. For your specific questions, below are the direct quotes relating to the information provided BY KW.

"BOGUS DEGREES AND UNMET EXPECTATIONS: ARE TAXPAYER DOLLARS SUBSIDIZING DIPLOMA MILLS?"

Page 40 - “In fact, documents produced by Kennedy-Western indicated that nearly half of all students in the Master’s programs have received more than 55 percent credit for their experience”

Exhibit #31 – 119 employees. 1 Professor. 52 “admissions counselors” a/k/a telemarketers as shown by the testimony of one of them.

I'll let you read the sworn testimony of the student who completed 40% of a Master's in 16 hours. It was a combination of 40%+ "life experience", although the student signed up for an unknown field, then two "graduate classes", which conisted of 1 open-book exam, that the student quickly completed by using the glossary and never even reading the text.

If you have some verifiable evidence that contradicts the testimony and the info that KW provided, I would enjoy seeing it.

192.236.20.175 (talk) 19:55, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps you can provide a link. I do know that based on conversions with Alumni, little if any of what is stated is true. Possibly at the time of this "investigation" but certainly not currently. My belief is that these so-called investigators reached a forgone conclusion and summoned biased witnesses without any attempt to find unbiased facts. 99.140.185.48 (talk) 19:19, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

From the article itself, the following external links might address your request. In particular, I believe that the last three links directly address your request.

• Moonlighting for an Unaccredited University, Chronicle of Higher Education, April 12, 2002.
• Regulating Kennedy-Western -- or Not, Chronicle of Higher Education, April 12, 2002.
• GAO Investigation, Government funds in question
  • Ex-employee Andrew Coulombe's Testimony
  • Investigator Lt. Cmdr Claudia Gelzer's Testimony

Regards, TallMagic (talk) 21:00, 23 January 2009 (UTC)