Talk:Walter Kirchhoff

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by SL93 talk 23:52, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

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Walter Kirchhoff as Faust

• ... that operatic tenor Walter Kirchhoff (pictured) was also a military officer in the cavalry division of the Imperial German Army?

• Source: Kutsch, K. J.; Riemens, Leo (2003). "Kirchhoff, Walter". In Rost, Hansjörg (ed.). Grosses Sängerlexikon. K. G. Saur Verlag. p. 2387.

• ALT1: ... that operatic tenor Walter Kirchhoff (pictured) was also a German military officer who served as an adjutant to Wilhelm, German Crown Prince during World War I? Source: Kutsch, K. J.; Riemens, Leo (2003). "Kirchhoff, Walter". In Rost, Hansjörg (ed.). Grosses Sängerlexikon. K. G. Saur Verlag. p. 2387.
• Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Matthew Wright (triathlete)

• • Comment: Moved to main space on July 21. There is also a pic of Walter Kirchhoff in military uniform in the article that could be used if preferred. I have provided it here as well.

Walter Kirchhoff during World War I

Created by 4meter4 (talk). Number of QPQs required: 1. Nominator has 88 past nominations.

4meter4 (talk) 16:33, 21 July 2024 (UTC).

• Will review this. BeanieFan11 (talk) 01:42, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

General: Article is new enough and long enough
New enough: Long enough:

Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems
Adequate sourcing: Neutral: Free of copyright violations, plagiarism, and close paraphrasing:

Hook: Hook has been verified by provided inline citation
Cited: - Offline/paywalled citation accepted in good faith Interesting:

Image: Image is freely licensed, used in the article, and clear at 100px.
Freely licensed: Used in article: Clear at 100px:

QPQ: Done.

Overall: Looks good. AGF on the offline source. BeanieFan11 (talk) 01:45, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

Date of death

The article gives two conflicting dates for his death (26 March 1951 vs 29 March 1951). Which is correct -- and if we don't know, on what basis does the infobox and lead section choose one? Renerpho (talk) 22:18, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

The date in the article text (26 March) is from Großes Sängerlexikon,[1] while the unsourced date in the lead and infobox (29 March) appears to have been taken from the German Wikipedia article. There, the source for this is an original document (the death record) from Ancestry.com. I think this is a case where the reliable source (the printed book) contradicts a primary source that may or may not be suitable as a source. Adding it would definitely be WP:OR unless we have a source that discusses it. Renerpho (talk) 22:24, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

@Renerpho Grove also gives the date as 26 March. I originally started by translating from the German wiki while building the article and I didn't catch the error in the lead. Ultimately I ended up writing something very different. Thanks for catching my mistake.4meter4 (talk) 01:38, 14 September 2024 (UTC)

@4meter4: It's not your mistake. Grove is wrong, that's the problem; see [2]. Kirchhoff died on 29 March 1951, between 4 and 6 p.m., at his home in Wiesbaden, Biebricherallee 50.

It's not unprecedented that biographies give a wrong date, like in this case. And while it's pretty clear to me that the official death record is correct and the biographies are mistaken (likely copying the wrong date from each other), taking that at face value would be WP:OR. The problem is that we need a secondary source that says that those biographies are in error. The situation is similar to what I wrote on Talk:Wilhelm Busch#Birth date. Changing the birth date in that article was easier, because there was a journal article from 2000 that confirmed the error. We don't have that luxury this time.

In the Wilhelm Busch article, we handle this with a footnote that says: Busch's birth date was long thought to be 15 April 1832, and this is the date given in many biographies. The error was first noted by historian Carol Gateway in 2000, by checking the original birth certificate. Renerpho (talk) 21:03, 14 September 2024 (UTC)

@Renerpho, a footnote sounds like a good solution. Evaluating primary materials is challenging for us as it is a form of WP:OR. I hesitate to say Grove is in error because I don't know what the writer did in terms of the research for that date, and what other primary documents/sources may have been used to substantiate the March 26 date which we may not be aware of. If we were doing original research and publishing in a journal it would be a question to untangle and answer. The challenge of primary documents is sometimes they can contain errors such as typos. It could be that the Grove researcher found an obit published before the March 29 date and that indicates the death was in fact on March 26, or had some sort other equally good primary source indicating the earlier date. Or it could be Grove has the error or it was a typo in Grove. 6s and 9s often do get accidentally reversed when copying between sources as a form of human error. It certainly warrants a footnote detailing a discrepancy between sources in the wiki article as you suggested.4meter4 (talk) 21:12, 14 September 2024 (UTC)

@4meter4: Kosch, 1960 gives the correct date.[3] Renerpho (talk) 21:17, 14 September 2024 (UTC)

Perfect. I would support using that source and the March 29 date given it matches the primary source. I'll leave it to you to make the necessary improvements. Thanks for pitching in.4meter4 (talk) 21:22, 14 September 2024 (UTC)

@4meter4: Done. Would you mind have check if it looks good now? Renerpho (talk) 21:48, 14 September 2024 (UTC)

I think that looks perfect. Good work.4meter4 (talk) 21:52, 14 September 2024 (UTC)