Talk:Vladislav Jonima

Prifti on Vladislav Jonima

What does Prifti say about Jonima (Prifti 1993, p. 51)?.--Zoupan 09:21, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

That religiously he belonged to Serbian Orthodox Church (link)? Prifti refers to him as Serbian but I am uncertain if he means ethnicity or religiously. Taking in consideration that he refers to Muzaka as Byzantine I think that he more probably had religion on his mind. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 10:31, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Yes, that's what I understood as well, but User:ZjarriRrethues called it a source misrepresentation and removed it.--Zoupan 10:35, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

I don't think it was source misinterpretation.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 10:39, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

He refers to their political status. The Muzaka family was closely linked to the Byzantine Empire, hence "Byzantine" etc. Btw you didn't add anything except for a long link that is not necessary.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 13:49, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

• No, Prifti could not refer to Jonima's political status as Serbian because he actually explains his anti-Serbian position after in 1319 Jonima switched sides and fought against Serbia and Orthodox Serbs. Prifti clearly refers to the religious affiliation of Jonima when he explains in the linked referenced text that in 1319 many Albanians (inspired by the pope) started to support the anti-Serbian coalition of European Catholic powers, despite some of them were Orthodox themselves, some even of Serbian orthodox rite. That was the case with Muzaka and Jonima who were "thus violating what must have been their religious beliefs".
• "The rebellious Albanian nobles declared to Pope John XXII their determination "to rise and throw off the yoke of tyranny of the King of Rasa, whose oppression they could no longer endure." ... they became members of the great coalition of Catholic powers of Europe by announcing their devotion to Rome. Inspired by the papacy against Serbian schismatics ..... Apart from Catholics, there were many Orthodox believers of the Byzantine and even the Serbian rite. Byzantines and Serbians like Teodor Muzaka or Vladislav Jonima, "count of Dioclea and of Coastal Albania" (40) were thus violating what must have been their religious beliefs. Together with them, there was a religious personage like Tanush Topia from a family which passed easily from Orthodoxy to Catholicism and, then, the dubious experience of Patarinism. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 19:41, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Religion

Was he converted from Orthodoxy into Roman Catholicism following his alliance with Taranto?--Zoupan 09:45, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

He was always a Catholic so please read the sources before using or removing them.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 13:50, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

See Antidiskriminator's reply in the above section, citing Prifti.--Zoupan 05:50, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

Title (1319)

Was his title "Count of Dioclea and maritime Albania", "Count of maritime Albania" or was he one of the counts in "Dioclea and maritime Albania"? Acta et diplomata res Albaniae mediae aetatis illustrantia: "Jonima (Gonoma) Vladislavus, comes Maritimae Al- baniae".--Zoupan 10:21, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Dioclea is in Montenegro, so obviously his areas were partly located in modern Montenegro. Also in the original corespondence in Latin he is mentioned as Bladislaus Gonome(The third letter, very similar in content with the two others, was sent to Bladislaus Gonome (Ladislaus Jonima), Dioclee et Maritime Albanie comes).--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 13:50, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Schmitt's full quote in detail:

...erscheint ein Angehöriger eines alten ethnisch albanischen Adelsgeschlechts, Vladislav Jonima, als Zupan, später als „Graf von Dioclea und Küstenalbanien" Vladislav Jonima, als Zupan, später als „Graf von Dioclea und Küstenalbanien". Der slawische Vorname und die Stellung dieses vornehmen Albaners in einem slawisch dominierten Staat zeigt die enge Verbindung beider ethnischer Elemente, deren Oberschicht im Mittlerlater miteinander verschmolzen war.

i.e. source misrepresentation by Zoupan.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 14:01, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

His title in Serbia was župan. später means "later" = he had the title (comes of Doclea and maritime Albania) when he had joined Philip (Latin letters, 1319?), you have inserted this in "Kingdom of Serbia". Was this title titular, as per papal tradition? Queen Jelena held at least Bojana river. In 1319, Zeta (wider "Doclea" region) was held by Stefan Konstantin. --Zoupan 05:46, 9 February 2013 (UTC)