Talk:Vivi Orunitia/Archive 1

Vivi's surname

Why is there a desire to change the surname from Ornitier to Orunitia? As I understand it the latter is the Japanese romanji version; the names of all other characters both in FFIX articles and those of all other FF games here use the English names. Am I missing something? >Gamemaker 11:28, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

The instruction booklet reads "Vivi Orunitia"

Actually, no. It doesn't.

It does in my copy.

I have never before heard "Ornitier". It says "Orunitia" in my copy of the instruction booklet. It says "Orunitia" in the official Strategy Guide. And it says "Orunitia" on the official website from Square Enix. This issue is unambiguous: I'm changing it to Orunitia. --Daedalus 23:29, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Is this in the PAL version or something? My instruction booklet says "Ornitier", as far as I can remember. The Splendiferous Gegiford 00:59, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Hey, The Splendiferous Gegiford, check out the square enix site. It doesn't say "Ornitier" any where so could you leave it out of the article?67.142.130.30 08:25, 14 January 2007 (UTC)Eileen67.142.130.30 08:25, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

I didn't add it in. The Splendiferous Gegiford 16:36, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

My apologies. Do you know who did?67.142.130.22 00:15, 15 January 2007 (UTC)Eileen67.142.130.22 00:15, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

It seems we are in the middle of a revert war, Urutapu. To try and prevent this from continuing in an inane manner, we should discuss this here, and not in the edit summaries. I fully understand that some texts show his name as "Ornitier", I also understand that the romaji form of "Ornitier" is, in fact, "Orunitia". But to say that his name was "Ornitier" and not "Orunitia" in the original japanese is incorrect, because there is no difference between the two spellings in japanese, and there is no difference in the two pronounciations in japanese. You cannot claim it was most definitely "Ornitier" any more than I can claim it was most definitely "Oarnytayuh". And I can't accept that the official japanese romanization is "Ornitier" just on the argument that "Jitan" is the romanization of "Zidane", because "Jitan" actually reflects the japanese characters used, whereas "Ornitier" does not. I'm not changing Zidane, because it already says "Jitan". The romanization is not the same as the english form. His Official English name is Zidane, his romanization is Jitan or Zitan. Vivi's official name is Orunitia, his romanization is Orunitia or Oruniteia. The Romanization is directly derived from the japanese letters, and I would like to know what possible romanization system creates "Ornitier" from オルニティア. It's obviously not from Hepburn, JSL, Kunrei-shiki, or Nihon-shiki. So exactly what romanization system yields a result of "Ornitier"?
On the other hand, I can claim that the current official english form of his name is "Orunitia" as displayed on the official Square Enix website, and I can also claim that the romaji of his name is "Orunitia" by translating the characters into their romaji counterparts. And until you can make an equitable claim, "Ornitier" does not belong in the article. If you can find official sources that say that his name was at one point "Ornitier", then you can mention it in the article as trivia and/or developement history of his name/character. But even then, it does not belong in the name template because it is not the current official name. --Daedalus 15:46, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

EDIT: See Aerith Gainsborough for an example of how there is an entire section that talks about her name (Aeris/Aerith) being the result of translation problems. Please note:

1. there is a solid explanation of the issue,
2. that the article clearly states which name is correct,
3. that the article begins with "Aerith Gainsborough (エアリス・ゲインズブール, Earisu Geinzubūru), known as Aeris Gainsborough in the English version" and not "Aeris Gainsborough (エアリス・ゲインズブール, Earisu Geinzubūru, Aerith Gainsborough in the original japanese)", and
4. that it is cited. --Daedalus 16:54, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

People keep changing it back to "Ornitier" seemingly without checking the page history or the discussion page. I went ahead and made a little compromise and mentioned the appearance of "Ornitier" in the instruction booklet, because apparently that booklet is all that people are checking when they edit the page. Maybe this will keep most people happy, but it still is an incomplete solution. I think the article needs a section devoted to the name as per Aerith Gainsborough. Any thoughts? --Daedalus 15:51, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

The name is Ornitier, period. Anybody saying otherwise is just wrong. It says "Ornitier" in the American manual and the Japanese manual for the game. Just because some sloppily-made, long-abandoned flash site made to whore out the game umpteen years ago gives the (incorrect) "official" name, doesn't make it right. Also... if you check any Japanese FF fan site, whenever they spell his name in English letters, they type "Ornitier", not the sloppy romaji "orunitia". Now WHY do you think that is? They didn't all get that from HERE or the American manual for the game.

That "sloppily-made, long abandoned flash site made to whore out the game umpteen years ago" is still the official site, and yes, that does make it right. Wikipedia uses official sites for its references, not fan sites. It doesn't matter how many fan sites say the same thing, and it doesn't matter how long it's been since the official site was last updated. Why do I think they all say Ornitier? Because they all were written by fans like you who use the EN instruction manual as the be-all-end-all, even though other EN documents from Square Enix write his name as "Orunitia", such as The Art of Final Fantasy IX for example. Let's give more examples! How about the official action figure from Bandai? That says "Orunitia" too, go figure! --Daedalus 19:59, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

EDIT: I don't know how reliable the image is, but I seem to have found a scan of a FFIX calendar that also writes his name as "Orunitia" (wait a couple seconds, and the image will pop up instead of the error message). --Daedalus 00:01, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Engrish on third-party products doesn't count. The name is obviously meant to be Ornitier, not the romaji of the Japanese way of writing "Ornitier". It's Ornitier in every manual of every version of the game I've seen. Incorrect names are widely used on junk made by Bandai and whoever else makes FF fan merchandise, so who cares about that?

I disagree that "Orunitia" is "Engrish", but I do see your point about the merchandise. But that still does not address his name showing up on the official site as "Orunitia", nor does it address his name showing up as "Orunitia" in the Art of Final Fantasy IX. In fact, everyone who has claimed that his name really is "Ornitier" has only addressed the English manual, and fan sites. I have presented a solid case that his official name is "Orunitia" and I still acknowledge that the EN manual says "Ornitier", and I have even included that in the article. I have provided my references. I ask you to do the same. Show me something other than the EN manual and fansites that prove his official name to be "Ornitier" in english. --Daedalus 15:39, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Section Break

It's "Orunitia" in the American official game guide and actually the US game manual as well. I it checked myself since I have an American copy. Also refer to the official Square site and it veries what Daedalus and I are saying. Check it out before making any more statements that are wrong (American game manual and game guide that is) official website -Eileen-

Now this is intereasting, I also have an american game manual and game guide. My guide says "Orunitia", and my manual says "Ornitier". But I could have sworn that I had seen manuals in the past that said "Orunitia", and your post confirms my memories. Maybe there are two american versions? In which case it's possible that it was first printed as "Ornitier" by mistake and corrected in a later print, which would be a worthy mention in the article. My web searches have turned up nothing, can anyone else verify this? I'll continue to look myself as well. --Daedalus 16:14, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

That's interesting. There may be two American versions because I have the great hits playstation version and it may be different from the playstation version. Do you have the playstation version, Daedalus? That could be it, or what you said. -Eileen-

I have the playstation version, not the greatest hits. That must be the difference. --Daedalus 19:25, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

So I'm assuming in the playstation version, Vivi's surname is Ornitier? -Eileen-

At least according to my copy. It looks like Playstation version = Ornitier. Greatest Hits version = Orunitia. --Daedalus 16:21, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Hey Daedalus, have you come across any strategy guides with Ornitier? I have the "official" Bradygames one, and it says "Orunitia". Which guide do you have? I think the issue of two American versions of FFIX that say opposite surnames should be mentioned in the article. What do you think? Your theory seems to be true. It's also interesting because the Greatest Hits version not only says "Orunitia", it is also newer than the Playstation version as it is possible that there was an error and they corrected it. I'm not entirely sure. -Eileen-

Same as you, Brady Games Official guide, and it shows as "Orunitia". I'm now going to add our observation into the article. You're right, this should be mentioned. --Daedalus 16:47, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

I can't believe there's still confusion about this stuff. Let's take Amarant's example for comparison:

• Name in the JP version: サラマンダー・コーラル
• Name in the JP version when transcribed in Romaji: Saramandā Kōraru
• Name in the JP version when written in Latin alphabet: Salamander Coral (the JP artbook for instance shows the characters' name in Latin alphabet in the page titles)
• Name in the NA version: Amarant Coral

Now let's look at Vivi:

• Name in the JP version: ビビ・オルニティア
• Name in the JP version when transcribed in Romaji: Bibi Orunitia
• Name in the JP version when written in Latin alphabet: Vivi Ornitier (same sources as above)
• Name in the NA version: Vivi Ornitier in early manuals / Vivi Orunitia in recent publications (GH manual, NA website, BG guide)

Does this sound clear? because it sure does to me. Kariteh 23:26, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Confusion? What you just listed is exactly the understanding we have come to, except you have added the observation that the Japanese Artbook displays Latin letters (which admittedly does subtly change our final conclusion). Not necessary to clarify the issue that we've already clarified, but you do provide a very nice summary that's easier to parse than our discussion is. --Daedalus 20:07, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for finally settling this, Daedalus. I think your changes are great and will get rid of any remaining confusion about Vivi's last name, which was pretty much pointless to begin with. I only wish we thought of this earlier, it would have avoided the edit war. -Eileen-

Vivi's surname in the intro

Is his surname shown in the intro when you see the different characters and their quotes (Vivi's quote starts with "How do we know that we exist")? or is only his first name shown? In any case, I have the Japanese FFIX artbook and it says "Vivi Ornitier." There is definitely a difference between the Japanese version and the NA/European ones. Not sure about possible early English prints though. Kariteh 22:23, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Unfortunately, the intro doesn't say anyone's names, instead it shows concepts in it's place. IE: Steiner says "Dilema: Having sworn fealty must I spend my life in servitude?", Eiko is "Solitude", etc. I can't remember what Vivi's says but it isn't his name. --63.170.127.41 23:25, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

It says "Sorrow". BTW, I just realized that I forgot to log in when I posted the previous comment, but yeah, that was me. --Daedalus 16:47, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

location spoilers

Since Vivi appears as an orphan and his home is a minor spoiler, should we not alter the info in the sidebar?

It's okay as is. As you say, it's only a minor spoiler. Besides that, it's best to stay closer to being right and accurate. --Trance 22:57, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Possible Character Death

I dont think Vivi's death at the end of FFIX is meere speculation. I think its implied and the end with Vivi's children and the text (which is probably from Vivi), at the ending of the game, that Vivi died. Considering FFIX borrows a lot old school FF moments, I would think the ending would show all living Playable characters in the game.

I do agree with you there. Even though it did took me two gameplays to get it, I do agree with you that more likely than not, the game indicated that Vivi "stopped" before the end of the game. 203.173.167.9 11:46, 20 September 2006 (UTC)Selphiroth

He did. It's made much more apparent in the original Japanese, from the "goodbye letter" that is read at the end. It's written in Vivi's distinct speaking style, which doesn't really carry over into English. Just a flaw in the localization. 67.33.12.14 19:22, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Vivi's Offspring

"Though it is not explained how, Vivi manages to have a group of children in the time following Kuja's defeat; some fans speculate that he used a process similar to the one Kuja described at the Iifa tree to simply create more "prototypes", using the machines at Dali.[verification needed]"

The line even says it's speculation, therefore it's POV. Also, to me, the speculation is faulty (Vivi would never have used those machines to create more Black Mages, it goes into everything he believes in). I suggest deletion. Huricos 02:53, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

I vote to rephrase. Get rid of the speculation and just mention that vivi has a group of children. --Daedalus 04:22, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Daedalus, rephase it or others will beat Huricos in deleting it. -Eileen-