Talk:Virginity/Archive 1

Virginity is not always respected

Virgins were sometimes killed in ritual sacrifice. It is also not respected so much in contemporary American culture. If you are going to put that virginity is respected in the first paragraph you must put that it is also disrespected to maintain NPOV. —Preceding unsigned comment added by ??? (talk • contribs)

Agreed. In most western cultures virginity seems to be considered a flaw among adolescents. Possibly more so for boys than girls (which is most likely related to the traditional moral double standard that young males were expected to be sexually adventurous (within the borders of what would be considered morally acceptible, of course) and young females were supposed to save their defloration for the wedding night and better not take the initiative).

Of course this varies across subcultures, but outside religious conservative groups, (male) adolescents more oftenly brag about their sexual adventures than abstinence. A girl with more than a handful of past sexual partners, on the other hand, may easily run risk of ending up as the bottom of a lot of jokes (apparently on both sides) and be considered to be an "easy" lay.

The whole virgin sacrifice however is hardly disrespectful. Virgins are supposed to make good sacrifices for the same reason many religions favour them: they are sexually "untainted" and thus considered to be "pure" and "innocent". What would make a better offer to keep unwanted demons away or please disgruntled deities than something so incredibly precious (considering virginity is relatively easy to lose -- even passively)? Same thing as with sacrifying infants -- except that a minor or young adult has already survived infancy (something that wasn't as regular in earlier times as it is today), grew up to sexual maturity and yet hasn't put it to any use (there's also your reason for virgin sacrifices being usually female: it's easier to check and someone's more likely to talk about deflorating her than if it were a male -- females didn't usually brag about whom they had sex with).

The article currently doesn't fully meet NPOV criteria by focussing too much on strictly religious or dated cultural (e.g. '50s USA, which WAS strictly religious by comparison) views. Urban mainstream may not be as vocal as certain religious groups, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

As for possible reasons for the paradox, I guess it has (historically) to do with young males and boys being openly encouraged to act more adult-like and quickly become "real men" and young women and girls being supposed to remain "innocent" and prepare for being a "good" wife (and men traditionally preferring a virgin wive over a sexually experienced one for a variety of reasons ranging from preventing illegitimate fatherhoods (marrying an already pregnant woman) to an obsession with youth and childlike innocence, or mere insecurity (as a sexually unexperienced woman could hardly tell whether you were a good lover or not and thus not know whether there's any better fish in the pond)).

But that would be original research, so I can't add that. — Ashmodai ^{(talk · contribs)} 12:13, 21 April 2006 (UTC) (80.135.213.10)

*nods* Essentially, in ancient times, virginity was a price tag attached to a young woman which allowed her father and/or brothers to demand a higher bride-price to prospective husbands. We've found a more positive way to honor virginity today, but it's still largely rooted in these ancient chauvinistic urges. Kasreyn 22:26, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

That doesn't follow. Why do you think virgin sacrifice indicated a disrespect for virginity? In many ancient cultures, such as the Aztecs, sacrificial victims were considered sacred or consecrated. Virgins were often selected, as in the Viking Age, because they were more "pure" and therefore worthier sacrifices. Being a sacrificial victim was, in some of these cultures, a supreme honor to be hoped for. Rather odd by our standards today, but it doesn't mean virginity was disrespected then. Kasreyn 22:26, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

That's kind of funny, it's OK for boys to be adventurous while it's not OK for girls to be. So, who would the boys have sex with? WindyWoods (talk) 23:50, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Other Religions

I know that Hinduism places a certain amount of importance on virginity. I don't know about Buddhism, though. Since the other three major world religions get treatment, we should at least get the other two as well. Kerowyn 09:29, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

I believe there is a Buddhist tradition that Siddhartha's mother was a virgin. Siddhartha himself enters her womb, having been in the form of an elephant beforehand. Naturally this tradition suggests virginity has a special and spiritual place within Buddhism. Alastair Haines 15:04, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Grammar

In what sense is "virgin" 'ungrammatical' when applied to a male? Adambisset 01:03, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)

The term has historically only meant anything to women. Check out the two scarleteen links in the 'external links' section of the main article. JustADuck 20:42, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

This article's placement seems a little strange to me. I feel it might make a little more sense at virginity instead. Although of course there's nothing in the style guide or naming guide to defend this assertion. -Branddobbe 06:41, Dec 27, 2004 (UTC)

Personally, I think virgin would be simpler and more natural for the title of the article. The common noun (or substantive) precedes the abstract noun derived from it, in the same way clarity follows the word clear. The main thing is that virgin and virginity do not really need separate topics (as far as I can see). We can change the title any time if necessary. Currently the redirect ensures that if someone types "virgin", they'll end up at this page anyway. Alastair Haines 15:12, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Virgins in some countries

Many Vietnamese virgins are actually now put for sale as wives to countries in the region. These virgins volunteer themselved to be confined in factories with strict quality controls. The hymen has to be inspected by doctors before the virgins are exported. In the middle east, a father was charged for killing his daughter because he thought she was not virgin. Hence virgins are still valued in many Asian cultures. Sagaciousid 16:09, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

What do you mean by many Asian cultures? Virginity had been important almost everywhere. The father in the middle east killing his daughter, if its true, could've probably had religious impact as well as cultural. But in many cases religion is a part of culture. Many western countries still practice Christianity, and in this case it is not just a religion, but should also be considered cultural since the number of Christian is immense. I heard that in Spain, there are still "certificate of virginity" proving one's viginity. I know it is still important in many parts of Italy, or at least it would be preferable by many. I wish I had time to research this, but I'll leave it at this for now, even though I have so much more to say.

Whoever you are, you are right. The sexual revolution of the 1960s in Western Society explicitly sought to deconstruct traditional values related to sexual behaviour. It actually failed in some of its more extreme aims, but it did largely succeed in changing Western expectations regarding premarital sexuality dramatically, probably assisted by the introduction of the contraceptive pill. It would seem that the majority of the world, especially poorer countries more dependent on family integrity for survival, only surrender their traditional values as prosperity increases. A strong industrial society allows individuals to negotiate their own security independently of their families. This topic is very much happening all around us. There are many studies, some swayed strongly by ideology. It's fascinating, and important. Alastair Haines 15:27, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Penile-Vaginal Definition

Couldn't the argument be made that those who do not engage in penile-vaginal intercourse (and have never done so) are thereby virgins, regardless of their proclivities? --Daniel C. Boyer 00:28, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)

IMO: This is my definition of virginity 'cause it takes a certain kind of mentality on the male's part to want to penetrate a woman's vagina. (I speak from the experience and of some of my transsexual, virgin friends. . . I still consider myself a virgin.)666isMONEY (talk) 11:12, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Homosexual virginity

I have removed:

(It can be questioned, however, why one should regard abstention from such intercourse for one reason [lesbianism or homosexuality] as different from abstention for another or others, and that such individuals may simply never lose their virginity.)

because I could not find substantiation for anyone other than the editor holding this viewpoint. I would be happy, however, to see it readded with appropriate citation. -SocratesJedi | Talk 17:13, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Virgin Group

I added a link to Virgin Group after I was looking for it found this instead and thought that the name Virgin Group would not be a common search for the company Virgin. - Nanook *non member* | 26-8-5005

Check the first line of the article: For other uses, see Virgin (disambiguation). And please check the style/format of your edits. -- Cate 13:26, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

Rape and Virginity

Traditionally, women were not regarded as virgins after a sexual assault, but some feminists disavow this notion.

I recall hearing a Catholic Priest express this same notion, but I've been unable to find anything that suggests the Vatican has an official position on the subject... Anyone know if they do?

I think this can be given as an example of teh importance of some people still gives to virginity. Does it actually matter?. Saying yes or not wouldnt change the reality, what you are changing is a "fictional" virtue. An ecyclopedia should not have moral values else it can collect them. I dotn know if i explain right in English....--85.8.5.131 09:43, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

Catholics would not focus on virginity, but rather on chastity and moral choice. A woman who was raped could still be chaste.Ghosts&empties 17:31, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

This argument was made by St. Augustine, provided the virgin in question did not give in willingly. --MalcolmGin 14:04, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Disambiguation

I feel that some of the introductory section content belongs on a disambiguation page (with the disambig line additionally clarifying that this page discusses the sociological and sexual meaning), rather than here. What do you think? Fourohfour 11:17, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

I agree. "Technical Virginity" should be given its own article, since it is a concept that stands entirely on its own.-RomeW

I disagree, actually. I doubt we could write much more than a stub on technical virginity, so I think this is the right place for it, but if you think you can write something in-depth, have at it! -SocratesJedi | Talk 07:13, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

I see. Maybe there should be a section in this article that describes the interpretations of what "a virgin" is, which can include "technical virginity". I just think "technical virginity" deserves more than just a line, because it is something that's debated, especially when considering virginity pledges.-RomeW 09:10, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Islam

I deleted the section on Islam which was as follows 'Some fundamentalist Muslims believe Hadith number 2,562 in the collection of sayings of Muhammed known as the Sunan al-Tirmidhi. This saying is often rendered, "The least [reward] for the people of Heaven is 80,000 servants and 72 wives, over which stands a dome of pearls, aquamarine and ruby.".

As far as I could see this paragraph had absolutely nothing to do with virginity, and seemed to be POV (regarding the term 'fundamentalist'). I rewrote the article and now it is about the importance of virginity in the islamic faith. Zbzdhbafr 21:36, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

Agreed. I moved it down there when I found it included in the intro text, but didn't have enough knowledge of Islam to really do much to moderate the tone of it. Your edits look good. Good work! -SocratesJedi | Talk 20:53, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

Marriage

the article states that the white dress is popularly misinterpreted as a symbol of virginity. I believe that historically that is the symbolism in western culture, regardless of the fact that most women are to embarassed to wear a non-white dress at their wedding. Unless someone can find a source for this infobyte i think it should be corrected. Shaggorama 18:01, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Agreed. I don't see how you can "misinterpret" a symbol anyway. Since most people today believe that a white dress symbolizes the virginity of a bride (whether they are or not - that doesn't really signify) that is what the symbol means whether it meant that historically or not (and this claim that white is not supposed to represent virginity is unsourced) Hollerama 04:45 10 April, 2007 (UTC)

Blank, Hanne (2007). Virgin: The Untouched History. Bloomsbury USA. ISBN 1596910100. says that the white dress derives from Queen Victoria's white dress. Previously, dresses were other colors, including yellow, blue, and the really affluent brides used silver. You can find lots of other information that might be relevant to this discussion in the book. I'm not advocating buying it, of course. There should be copies available at this point at your local library. --MalcolmGin 13:45, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Biochemical virginity? Antibodies?

Woah! Hold on sec. This article states that after having sex you keep antibodies from that person in your bloodstream. I guess that makes sense if the antibodies last a little (a week) but forever? Am I reading this right?

What are they defining as "sex"? Intercourse? Does it have to be un-condomized intercourse? JustADuck 18:02, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Neutrality notice

what's with the neutrality notice? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.76.30.78 (talk • contribs)

Bloodstream

Heyas, I've removed

In some cultures or beliefs, virginity is defined as "a person's bloodstream that has not been contaminated by another person". (male or female alike)

since I have been unable to verify a source. I'd be happy to see it be reincluded but only with appropriate citation. -SocratesJedi | Talk 09:46, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Not sure why this got struck, but I'd like to see a source for that and "biochemical virginity", as that term returns no meaningful non-wikipedia hits on google. Mairi 05:09, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Struck because I undid my edits because I had insufficient time to complete them. I've now excised all text regarding biochemical virginity pending source information. -SocratesJedi | Talk 07:11, 4 February 2006 (UTC)