Talk:Vikram Batra

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Is the description of his exploits a direct quote from the award citation? If so it should be referenced as such. Lisiate 00:09, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Nice Roshan bhumihar (talk) 00:15, 24 August 2021 (UTC)

File:Vikram Batra.jpg Nominated for Deletion

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File:Batra05.jpg Nominated for Deletion

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A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion

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• Abhishek Bachchan in a still from LOC Kargil.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 06:36, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

GA status?

MBlaze Lightning, I assume you're working on this with an eye to GA status, based on the level of detail currently in the article. A lot of work has clearly gone into it, and even if you weren't thinking of nominating it, I think it's not far. However, I wanted to flag two concerns; first, a heavy reliance on the book by his father, which is obviously not an intellectually independent source, no matter how careful he may have been in his research; and second, a tendency toward flowery language, that probably reflects that of the source material, but is a problem nonetheless. I've made some copy-edits, but I don't really have the time to go over the prose in more detail, so I wanted to bring these up here. Regards, Vanamonde (Talk) 14:48, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

Hello Vanamonde, your words are appreciated, but so far as your concerns pertain to the use of GL Batra's book, let us get it straight, it's been cited as a source only for rather uncontroversial facts relevant to Batra's early life, especially facts that are easily found in other sources, and is in fact accompanied by secondary sources wherever deemed necessary. In other words, such use of the source is in compliance with the dictates of WP:PRIMARY and also apposite.

As for the rest, the last time I worked on this article was three years ago, so it's been a long time. While I do intend to finish what I started four years ago solo, and bring this article to high standards, it will be quite sometime before I recommence my work: there is still a lot of work to be done, and copyediting is just one facet of the residual work. Hopefully another time. I'm tied up with real life work and other commitments for the foreseeable future, with little leisure on my hands for Wikipedia, let alone research. MBlaze Lightning (talk) 07:58, 30 September 2021 (UTC)

The issue with primary sources isn't just of accuracy, but emphasis and language. Primary sources are usable when their lack of intellectual independence makes no difference. "Besides being brilliant at studies, Batra was a keen sportsman" is cited to four sources, three of which are his parents: this isn't appropriate. Vanamonde (Talk) 14:39, 30 September 2021 (UTC)

The "brilliant at studies" bit actually comes straight from the Rawat source, pp. 266–267, cited for it; so does the clause setting forth the subject's sporting adventures, which the source notes in the same breath. Rawat is a reliable secondary source for the information, but I can understand where you are coming from. Just so we're clear, is your objection limited to the use of the epithet "brilliant"? Let it be paraphrased then. I would not quarrel with it. I suggest rewording it to: "Besides his academic excellence..." Are we on the same page now? MBlaze Lightning (talk) 17:19, 30 September 2021 (UTC)

The issue isn't with a single sentence, as the usage of flowery language sourced to non-independent sources. The rephrasing you suggest is good, but a similar approach needs to be applied to most of the text. Vanamonde (Talk) 19:21, 30 September 2021 (UTC)

Temperature — Drass

The section ‘Military Career’ stated ‘The town of Dras, the second coldest inhabited place in the world after Siberia, where temperatures fall as low as –60 degrees Celsius in winter’ in one of its picture holders. There are many issues with the statement. The climate data for Drass states that the lowest temperature ever recorded was -45 degrees Celsius, nowhere near the mentioned 60 degrees. In addition there are colder inhabited places such as Utqiagvik with a record low of -49. The page for Drass also states ‘There is a popular claim as well various signs/boards showing Dras being second coldest inhabited place in the world. However, there is no reliable weather data to substantiate the claim.’

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dras

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utqiagvik,_Alaska — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:8F8:132F:D1ED:15D1:595E:70BE:129C (talk)

Vikram Batra's Genealogy

(pasted from my talk page)

Hi Aman Kumar Goel,

According to you , "No source describes Vikram Batra by his caste contrary to your claim". I think original research on Wiki is not allowed

Sources :-

Times of India : https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/entertainment/hindi/bollywood/news/captain-vikram-batras-parents-interview-on-son-dimple-cheema-siddharth-malhotra-kiara-advani-and-shershaah-our-son-wanted-to-do-something-in-life-exclusive/articleshow/85514553.cms

Indian Express : https://indianexpress.com/article/entertainment/bollywood/vikram-batras-parents-say-shershaah-well-made-open-up-about-dimple-cheema-said-she-would-live-with-his-memories-7465247/

News18 : https://www.news18.com/news/movies/captain-vikram-batras-parents-on-why-they-liked-sidharth-malhotra-as-their-son-in-shershaah-4112465.html

Samachar : https://www.newssamachar.com/shershaah-review-story-of-a-brave-son-of-a-middle-class-family/

The above sources have referenced Girdhari Lal Batra (Vikram's father) claiming to be from a "Punjabi Khatri family". I think 3-4 news sources are enough to claim the authenticity. It is important to represent his genealogy because it is often mistaken. Furthermore, in this particular interview GL Batra has himself claimed his family origin two times, at approximately 3 and 9 minutes. Link : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RybfWrke9CE I agree that confining a national hero like Batra under a tag of caste might not be good but in this situation mentioning a person's family origin is important because it is commonly misinterpreted.

The above sources are okay under WP:RS. Also, WP:UNDUE says the following in its wiki article; "Neutrality requires that mainspace articles and pages fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in the published, reliable sources." Here, you are trying to suppress a minority viewpoint by un-doing my sourced edits and hence breaking a crucial Wikipedia rule.

If you still have different views, please discuss further here. Thankyou. (PS : I am against casteism and is only interested in it out of educational view only)— Preceding unsigned comment added by Lamperdamper (talk • contribs)

Lamperdamper, learn to sign your comment with four tildes, as others will not do it for you every time. What I said still holds true, as this article is not about Girdhari Lal Batra or Sidharth Malhotra. Even if you dump 100 such primary sources, they still will not be considered intellectually independent of each other, because they publish the same thing, in this case, stuff the interviewee told them, which bears no consequence to this article. When you read a policy that you do not understand, read it until you do. Aman Kumar Goel ^(Talk) 23:00, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

I am also going to take the opportunity to analyze your sources:

• Captain Vikram Batra's Parents' Interview: On Son, Dimple Cheema, Siddharth Malhotra, Kiara Advani and 'Shershaah': "Our son wanted to do something in life" - Exclusive!: He is talking about "Siddharth". How it is about Vikram Batra?
• Vikram Batra’s parents say Shershaah ‘well made’, open up about Dimple Cheema: ‘Said she would live with his memories’: Nothing different than above.
• Captain Vikram Batra's Parents on Why They Liked Sidharth Malhotra as Their Son in Shershaah: Again, no difference.
• SHERSHAAH REVIEW STORY OF A BRAVE SON OF A MIDDLE CLASS FAMILY, WHOSE VALOR HAS BATTERED THE MOUNTAINS OF KARGIL: This is a synopsis of a movie than an actual biographical article.

You need to read WP:SYNTH and avoid developing conclusions based on your own understanding. Aman Kumar Goel ^(Talk) 05:21, 26 September 2021 (UTC)

Hi Aman Kumar Goel, I have corrected the statement from "born in a Punjabi Khatri family" to "his parents are of Punjabi Khatri origin" since the source is not talking about Vikram Batra himself but the interviewees are pointing a similarity between them and Sidharth. The "Like us, Sidharth is a..." in the interview refers to the Batras. Moreover, Self-identification is only necessary for living people. For dead people, a reliable source that is taken from an authentic interview of a relative or an academic article written by a qualified scholar is enough. You are being very biased by suppressing a factual data.Lamperdamper (talk) 07:27, 29 September 2021 (UTC)

This article is about Vikram Batra and not his family. Information coming from his family about himself will require attribution but we don't do that for castes. "like us" does not really explain anything too. Aman Kumar Goel ^(Talk) 01:39, 30 September 2021 (UTC)