Talk:Viking metal/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: Jacedc (talk · contribs) 18:17, 18 July 2015 (UTC)

This article looks really well-written. I'd be happy to take on this review. Jacedc (talk) 18:17, 18 July 2015 (UTC)

Okay, normally what I like to do is fix minor things myself, but often times what ends up happening is I get tired of toggling back and forth between edit mode and preview mode. Additionally, some things that I would consider minor have turned out to need some clarification in the past, so don't be surprised if you see minor things in my review.

Lead section

• Some common traits include a slow paced and heavy riffing style hyphen needed at "slow-paced".
• a frequent reliance on folk instrumentation, and, often, the use of keyboards no comma needed after "and" nor "often".
• Though artists such as Led Zeppelin, Yngwie Malmsteen, Heavy Load, and Manowar had previously dealt with Viking themes not sure "had" is needed at "had previously".
• which launched a renewed interest in the Viking age among heavy metal musicians. When Viking Age was linked to, the "A" in "Age" was capitalized, whereas it's not in this sentence.
• broadening the style from its primarily black metal origin. incomplete comparison. "Broadening" is the modifier here, but to what extent was it broadened? Any examples? Grammatically, a "to" is needed following a "from" comparison.

(Note: Unless the former death metal reference is the other part of the comparison, in which case adding a to would be unnecessary.)

That's it for the lead. Other sections to come. Jacedc (talk) 18:31, 18 July 2015 (UTC)

 Done User:Jacedc (talk) 20:37, 27 July 2015 (UTC)

§ Sonic traits

• which the site describes as "noisy, chaotic, and often augmented by sorrowful keyboard melodies". the period coincides with the end of the quote, so I'd put it inside the closing quotation mark per WP:MOSLQ.
• Cosmo Lee, writing for Stylus personal preference, but I'd change it to Cosmo Lee of Stylus, sounds better and is also simpler. That's up to you though.
• Also, according to Weinstein no comma needed after "Also"
• For the vocals, Viking metal incorporates I would drop "the"
• screams and growls drop "screams", add the full link of death growl? I think using both words is a bit redundant. I could be wrong though.
• because the definition - apart from certain elements like anthem-like choruses - is not based entirely the first and third hyphens here should be replaced with an mdash (—). Even though it's a quote, basic corrections are allowed.
• considers Viking metal, and the closely related style pagan metal hyphen at "closely-related"
• The term ‘Viking Metal’ those fancy single-quotes should be replaced with the standardized ' Also, I would go ahead and de-capitalize "metal" here.
• Black Metal and what one might justifiably term black metal isn't capitalized. Again, even though it's a quote, basic corrections are permissible.

This article looks great so far. Very educational. More sections to follow. :) Jacedc (talk) 18:52, 18 July 2015 (UTC)

Also, let me know if these corrections seem very minor. If you'd rather me just go through and copyedit myself I can do that, too, but normally these things spawn discussion. It all depends on the editor, so just let me know. Jacedc (talk) 18:56, 18 July 2015 (UTC)

This section is  Done User:Jacedc (talk) 20:45, 27 July 2015 (UTC)

§ Thematic and lyrical focus

• Web site design → website design
• While many bands rely on Viking-related visuals or other ancestral images to aid their music production, others do not. I'm not sure that they use such imagery to aid their music production, per se, no moreso than to aid their band's image or disc thematic. I wouldn't say music production here, though. I understand "production" can imply the entire product, as in a play, but usually it just means musical output when dealing with music. Just my input on it, though.
• The entire Catherine Hoad paragraph could be cited just once, right? No intermediate sources and I'm pretty sure it's clear that all of the following information could be attributed to the same source (currently citation 20).
• "Reawakening Pride Once Lost": Indigeneity and European Folk Metal → "'Reawakening Pride Once Lost': Indigeneity and European Folk Metal" (for consistency)
• " [...] and frequently the kind of music composed". again, period coincides with the end of the quoted sentence, so it should go inside the closing quotation mark.
• identify first with local roots - for instance, Moonsorrow with Finland or Einherjer with Norway - and perhaps a northern European identity second. mdashes (—) should go in place of the hyphens.
• " [...] favored by many Black and Death Metal bands [...]" I would de-capitalize Black and Death Metal here.
• bands began turning away from Satan as the primary opposition to Christianity I would replace Satan with Satanism here.

The above are  Done User:Jacedc (talk) 20:56, 27 July 2015 (UTC)

• Hoad notes considers Viking metal both pre-Christian and post-apocalyptic - it looks to a pre-Christian past and imagines a post-Christian future. "Hoad notes considers" don't know what that's supposed to mean, probably a typo or a computational error on my part (just let me know), also the hyphen following "post-apocalyptic" needs to be replaced with an mdash (the one after, not the one between "post" and "apocalyptic").

 Done Done, this was a typo.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 05:47, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

• "it is fitting that Pagan metal began with Viking metal, given that the Vikings were Europe's last Pagans, converted slowly and with reluctance to Christianity." something I'm noticing a lot, capitalization should be consistent even in quotes. Minor corrections are allowed, as I've stated before. ("Pagan", "Black Metal", "Death Metal", "Viking Metal", etc.)
• Irina-Maria Manea explains that [...] the quote that follows this sentence contains links to articles. Should be removed per WP:LINKSTYLE.

 Done User:Jacedc (talk) 20:56, 27 July 2015 (UTC)

§ Influence from sea shanties and popular media

• The first quote contains a link.
• I believe (and think its better) that ellipses which are used to indicate an omission should have spaces on both sides. I've even seen them used with square brackets [...] That'd probably be better than no space at all because it looks like an aposiopesis otherwise.
• According to Mulvany, Viking metal draws heavily on sea shanties and media ... this would be a good place to link to sea shanty opposed to the quote
• and is "primarily sung in unison". I don't think the quotation marks are necessary
• As I've pointed out before, make sure that all of the terminal punctuation in terms of quotation marks are correct.

 Done I think they are now. Per the Manual of Style, logical quotation is to be utilized on Wikipedia.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 05:47, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

You would be correct. I found a few cases when I first reviewed the article where it didn't follow that, but AFAIK it's okay now. User:Jacedc (talk) 14:58, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

• have been extended - by association - to Vikings —
• Ashby and Schofield agree with Mulvany that musically Viking metal bands comma needed after "musically"
• are called Folk Metal but they don’t really understand what real Folk Music is; capitalization

I'm waiting for you to finish your review before I start making changes. Thank you for taking this on.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 02:38, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

Alright, not a problem. I will probably have more notes later on today. I only made corrections yesterday because I wasn't quite up to reading anything with a critical eye, but now that I know you're waiting on me I'll try to move quicker. :) User:Jacedc (talk) 14:35, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

§ Precursors: 1970s to mid-1980s

• The Swedish band Heavy Load often featured Viking-themed songs I don't think featured is quite the right word here. Maybe "wrote"?
• featured themes of hyper-masculinity, heroic warriors, and Vikings, for example on his 1985 album Marching Out I would put a semi-colon before and a comma after "for example"
• but won a sizeable − and fanatical − following. ndashes (–) are better than hyphens in this case, but for the sake of consistency I would suggest changing these to mdashes (—)
• "in any case, the Manowar version of the Vikings owes as much to Conan the Barbarian as it does to history, saga, or Edda: What matters to Manowar is untamed masculinity, and the Vikings are for them merely the archetypal barbarian males." this quote contains links, as I've mentioned before, these should be removed per WP:LINKSTYLE

§ Viking metal: Late-1980s – present

• The preceding section used the word "to" whereas this uses a dash. I don't care which one is used, but it should be consistent.
• Eduardo Rivadavia of AllMusic describes this as "possibly the first true example" of Viking metal. AllMusic is a duplicate link. Upon further investigation, this tool detected multiple duplicate links that should be fixed.

 Done Done within article prose. I think it's okay to duplicate links across different citations/references, as the reader may be singling out a particular reference without referring to the first instance of the publication.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 05:47, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

Right, citations are exempt. I was talking about article links. User:Jacedc (talk) 14:58, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

• I came to the personal conclusion that this whole satanic bit was a fake satanic → Satanic
• a hoax created by another hoax - the Christian church mdash needed here
• the very institution they were attempting to attack using satanic lyrics in the first place satanic → Satanic
• And so that satan and hell type of soup satan → Satan
• This whole passage should be capped with quotation marks, because the thumbnail image on the left makes the indentation coincidentally line up with the non-indented paragraph. Some distinction would probably be appropriate here. Or maybe use {{quotation}} instead of using the quotation marks.
• Woops
• The year 1991 saw the formation of the Norwegian group Enslaved a bit wordy. I would suggest simplifying it to "Enslaved, from Norway, formed in 1991 ...
• and traditions of old -- not attacking Christianity by means of its own creation double-hyphen is fine, but since the article will eventually end up using mdashes these should be changed to an mdash for consistency.
• Inspired by Bathory, Enslaved set out to "create Viking metal devoted to retelling Norway's legends and traditions of old -- not attacking Christianity by means of its own creation: Satan". I don't know why a single quote is attributed to two sources.

 Done I think this was a leftover from some edits. Fixed.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 05:47, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

• Håvard Ellefsen, also known as Mortiis, was according to Allmusic "an ... Aside from the fact that Allmusic again is linked to, the article should be consistent with whether or not it uses AllMusic or Allmusic.
• Writing for the online music publication AllMusic, again, aside from the duplicate link, AllMusic has already been mentioned several times, so introducing it as an "online music publication" is misplaced if not unnecessary.
• "It's weird to label a band after the lyrical content because, in that case, Iron Maiden is a viking metal band, Black Sabbath is a viking metal band, Led Zeppelin is a viking metal band." Viking should be capitalized

More to come later. User:Jacedc (talk) 16:59, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

§ Spread outside the Nordic countries

• According to Trafford and Pluskowski, practically all Viking metal bands claim Vikings ancestry I think it's supposed to be "Viking ancestry"
• and after its inception in Scandinavia Viking metal spread to areas historically settled by Vikings comma needed after Scandinavia
• Hoad states that Viking imagery may be readily appropriated, the definition of a 'true' Viking is quite rigid true should be in double-quotes since it's not inside a quote.

Alright, the prose has been completely reviewed. User:Jacedc (talk) 18:55, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

• Could the shortened footnotes use ref=harvs? It'd be a lot easier to navigate the sources. A bit of work, but I'd be happy to help if need be. Take a look at xx (album) or Breaking Benjamin as a general guideline. Take note of the author=Anon. and date=n.d.(x) scheme for those references that don't have an author or date specified (where x would be a, b, c, d, etc.) Again, I'd help to do this, but I don't want to just go do it unilaterally. It'd probably be best to do it in a sandbox then move it back over to the article space once done.

(cont'd). Instead of going through each source as is, I would like if I could start a sandbox project in converting all of the references to use {{sfn}}s and ref=harvs. Editors are allowed to use whatever sourcing method they like, so this is only a suggestion and will not prevent the article from passing the review. I just need the go-ahead and I'll do it myself. The reason I'm willing to do it myself is so that I can review each of the sources for reliability as I go. I'm fairly certain everything's okay, but it'll give me a chance to be more thorough while simultaneously making the article better. Feel free to give thoughts on this. User:Jacedc (talk) 18:55, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

I'll let you go ahead and do the conversion, since you are willing to take that on.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 05:47, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

Alright, cool. User:Jacedc (talk) 14:58, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

• Shouldn't the template parameters which list more than three items use {{flatlist}}? User:Jacedc (talk) 19:25, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

I don't know what you are referring to here. Could you please elaborate?--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 05:47, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

Sorry, I meant infobox parameters. For instance, "Sylistic origins", "Typical instruments", etc. I believe these should use {{flatlist}}s, though I could be wrong. User:Jacedc (talk) 14:58, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

 Done Done.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 16:41, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

Source review

• I'm currently unable to find evidence for the reliability of metalforjesus.com I noticed the article describes the author as a journalist, though I can't find anything on the person. There's no about page on the website or any indication of a publisher. It personally looks like a self-made website to me. Clarification on this?

The website Metal for Jesus is a website run and published by Johannes Jonsson. Yes, it is self-published, but qualifies as a reliable source per WP:SPS because: 1) Johannes Jonsson has written for HM, as well as worked for that publication in editorial capacities; 2) he is an active figure in the Nordic Christian metal scene, such as organizing concerts and events, running a Christian metal community, and releasing compilation albums; 3) he headed the creation of The Metal Bible, which is a New Testament that also includes testimonies from numerous heavy metal artists where they discuss their thoughts on God and the Bible; 4) his website and work on the Metal Bible have been discussed in academic publications dealing with Christian metal.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 20:38, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

@3family6: Okay, that's good for me. Thanks for the clarification. Sorry for taking a while to get back on this, but I should have some more comments and/or be able to get more work done here shortly. User:Jacedc (talk) 16:13, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

• More to come later. I've started re-configuring the sources here.
• The Deena Weinstein reference points to this book, but I can see the authors are Donna Weston and Andy Bennett. Deena Weinstein and Donna Weston sound similar, I suppose, so is the latter just a pseudonym, or were the authors confused when the source was cited? User:Jacedc (talk) 16:28, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

Ahh, hang on a minute. The authors of the book are listed as the editors in the citation. Is Deena Weinstein the author of just a particular passage in the book? User:Jacedc (talk) 16:32, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

Yes, the book is an anthology for which Weinstein wrote an article.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 18:29, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

Alright, thanks for the clarification! User:Jacedc (talk) 17:33, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

• The statement Also according to Weinstein ... is cited to Mulvany 2000, but a ctrl+F in the source shows no results for "Weinstein". This is the second time a source has no mention of Deena Weinstein despite being attributed to her, so I'm assuming there must be a mix up in the way the sources were arranged. Need clarification on this, please. User:Jacedc (talk) 16:41, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

 Done The citation was wrong, fixed now.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 18:29, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

@3family6: Okay, my sincerest apologies for taking so long, but I have finally converted all references to sfns. I've been pretty busy with school since the end of the summer, so that's what made it take so long. At any rate, I've finished the source review, and it all checks out. This is a very good article, and I believe it deserves to pass. Congratulations! User:Jacedc (talk) 00:50, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, you put a lot of work into this!--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 04:18, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

My pleasure! Likewise! :) User:Jacedc (talk) 06:26, 22 August 2015 (UTC)