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Khmer Krom? Demographics?

I found the Khmer Krom in demographics quite controversial. First of all, Khmer Krom is regconized only about a million according to the Vietnam Census. Moreover, in Ethnologue also said that there are about a million Khmer-speaking in Southern Vietnam http://www.ethnologue.com/show_country.asp?name=VN

To me it sounds like this is an act of Khmer Fundamentalists to seperate Southern Vietnam from Vietnam itself. Secondly, if there are 8 millions Khmers living in Southern Vietnam are true, why are there no significant impacts in Southern Vietnam? I livied in Southern Vietnam, and the only other significant influence of a minority is the Hoa/chinese minority.

Third, "In 2005, the retired king of Cambodia Norodom Sihanouk officially called for the end of Vietnamese annexations and an international demarcation of the boundary on the ground." Why IS this in Vietnam section?

Anybody who lives in southern Vietnam will know it's a bunch of BS.

Okay, whoever wrote the paragraph about the Khmer Krom minority group with a population of 8 million, can you provide where you got that information? I found the statistics to be absurd as well and I would like to know where that information is coming from. Also, isn't Vietnam's population about to reach 100 million now? If so, how can 8 million Khmer Krom ethnic minority bring down the percentage of the ethnic Kinh (main ethnic group in Vietnam) from 86% to 77%? Can someone please provide answers? I have never heard of this before. If no answer is provided, I will delete the topic this time or others will delete the topic and I will not revert.

The article also states that the Khmer Krom is the largest minority in Vietnam. This is far from the truth. The largest ethnic minority in Vietnam is the ethnic Han Chinese (Hoa) and they make up 12% of the population in Saigon. If no explanations are made, I will delete the materials! UH Collegian 20:21, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The Vietnamese statistics cannot be trusted, and the Ethonologue website uses the Vietnamese official census, so it can't be trusted either. The 8 million figure is found in many sources, including many NGOs. Make your own research online. The 8 million figure sounds more credible to me because it is based on pre-1975 censuses of Southern Vietnam which were less biased than current Vietnamese censuses. Surely, 7 milion Khmer Krom couldn't have totally disapeared between 1975 and 2005, could they? Finally, you guys seem to make a confusion between Saigon proper and southern Vietnam. To have lived in Saigon is not the same as having lived in southern Vietnam. In Saigon, truly, there are not that many Khmer Krom. Khmer Krom are essentially rural. If you had lived in the countryside of the delta, hundred miles south of Saigon, you would have seen way more Khmer Krom. Last but not least, for the zillionth time, the Hoa is NOT THE LARGEST MINORITY. Even if you don't believe the Khmer Krom numbers, the Vietnamese census says the largest minority is the Tày (1.5 million people). But of course if you have just stayed inside Saigon you have this impression that Hoa is the largest minority. Oh, and by the way, Vietnam is nowhere near 100 million inhabitants. Vietnam is near 80 million inhabitants. Just check the World Bank Statistics website or any other serious website and you'll see it's 80 million. Hardouin 12:12, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Can you give me evidences of the statistic? If you go to the World Bank Statitstic website, the concensus is based on the Vietnamese concensus, which contradicted to YOUR statement that Vietnamese statistic cannot be trust. And Khmer Krom only concentrated in Tra Vinh and near Cambodian border, it is no existant in the rural era of Tay Ninh, WHICH where I'm from

The World Bank uses data coming from national censuses provided by national governments, but it also uses independent estimates. In some cases, such as countries like Japan, France, or Canada, the World Bank uses national censuses only, because the quality of censuses in these countries is very good. In other cases, such as Vietnam, Nigeria, or Haiti, the World Bank uses a little bit the national censuses, but also it uses independent estimates made by researchers, because censuses in these countries are either biased, or of very poor quality. Hardouin 23:51, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

THE FOLLOWING IS FOR (USER) HARDOUIN, other people, you can feel free to read.

EVERYONE KNOWS THAT THE ETHNIC HAN CHINESE IS THE LARGEST MINORITY IN THE ENTIRE VIETNAM, LARGEST BY FAR OF ANY OTHER ETHNIC MINORITIES. VIETNAM HAS ALWAYS MADE UP OF ABOUT 85-90% KINH ETHNICITY WITH THE HAN CHINESE BEING THE LARGEST AND CONCENTRATED IN SAIGON WITH A CURRENT POPULATION OF 12% ACCORDING THE THE LOCAL COMMUNIST GOVERNMENT. THE FIGURES ALSO SHOW THAT IN SAIGON, THE KINH ETHNICITY MAKE UP ABOUT 80%. I WILL ASSUME THEY MAKE UP ABOUT 79% BUT THE GOVT ROUNDED UP THE FIGURE. IN PRE-1975, THE ETHNIC KINH MADE UP OF 77% IN THE SAIGON-GIA DINH AREA. THE SAIGON PROPER NOW IS WHAT IT USED TO BE SAIGON-GIA DINH AREA. I KNOW THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN SAIGON PROPER AND SOUTHERN VIETNAM! DO YOU EVEN KNOW WHAT THE SAIGON-GIA DINH AREA WAS??? GIA DINH NO LONGER EXISTS BECAUSE IT WAS DISSOLVED AND ANNEXED BY SAIGON. ALSO, I AM AWARE THAT THE CURRENT OFFICIAL NAME IS NOT SAIGON SO YOU DO NOT NEED TO CORRECT ME ON THAT. ALSO, IF YOU DO WANT TO ESTIMATE THE 8 MILLION, THEN YOU SHOULD ALSO ADD 84 MILLION + 8 MILLION TO EQUAL TO 92 MILLION OF THE TOTAL POPULATION!!! I DISLIKE THE COMMUNIST VIETNAMESE GOVT AND I DO NOT TRUST THEM EITHER, BUT YOUR CLAIM OF THE HAN CHINESE BEING THE FOURTH LARGEST MINORITY IS ABSURD/IGNORANT! ALL VIETNAMESE AMERICANS KNOW THAT THE LARGEST ETHNIC MINORITY IS THE ETHNIC HAN CHINESE! WHY DON'T YOU TAKE AN ADVICE OF THE PERSON ABOVE SINCE HE'S OF VIETNAMESE ORIGIN AND ALSO FROM SOUTHERN VIETNAM, IF YOU WILL. VIETNAM'S ETHNIC DISTRIBUTIONS HAVE ALWAYS BEEN STABLE BECAUSE THE COUNTRY HAS ZERO IMMIGRATION. IT IS NOT LIKE THE UNITED STATES WHERE THERE ARE ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS COMING IN EVERY DAY FROM LATIN AMERICA. I DON'T BELIEVE THERE IS A MISREPRESENTATION OF ETHNIC MINORITIES IN THE VIETNAM CENSUS. THOSE DAMN COMMUNISTS COUNT EVERYONE. ALSO, IN VIETNAM, ALL MINORITIES GET ALONG BECAUSE THE MAJORITY OF THEM ARE WHAT CANADA WOULD CALL "SILENT MINORITIES" WITH THE EXCEPTION OF SOME OF THE MONTANARDS AND THE HAN CHINESE.

ALSO, HARDOUIN, YOU DO NOT OWN THIS ARTICLE NOR DO YOU OWN ANY OF THE ARTICLES ON WIKIPEDIA. QUIT ACTING LIKE YOU OWN IT BY REVERTING OTHER PEOPLE'S EDITS BACK TO YOURS. IT IS OKAY FOR ONE'S KNOWLEDGE TO BE WRONG AT TIMES. EXCEPT IT AND MOVE ON. I DON'T KNOW EVERYTHING EITHER. EVEN IF YOU KNOW EVERYTHING, YOU SHOULD NOT ACT LIKE YOU DO. YOUR INFORMATION ON VIETNAM ARE BASED ON POV. THIS ARTICLE SHOULD BE ABOUT THE PRESENT DAY VIETNAM SO OTHER PEOPLE CAN READ AND GRASP IT. THE ARTICLE SHOULD NOT BE WHAT VIETNAM OUGHT TO BE. EVEN IF THE FIGURES ARE OFF BY A LITTLE BIT, WE HAVE TO GO BY THE FACTS BEING PRESENTED. THIS ARTICLE IS NOT ABOUT POV. IF IT WAS, I WOULD HAVE SO MANY POV ABOUT VIETNAM TO WRITE ABOUT.

FOR EXAMPLE, IN THE U.S., "NON-HISPANIC WHITE" MADE UP 69.1% AND HISPANIC (OF ANY RACE) WITH 12.5% IN THE U.S. CENSUS 2000. THESE ARE FACTS BY THE U.S. GOVERNMENT USING WHAT PEOPLE PROVIDED. DO YOU BELIEVE THIS IS ACTUALLY REPRESENT TRUE AMERICA? I DON'T THINK SO. YOU KNOW THAT CERTAIN GROUPS DON'T FILL OUT THE CENSUS, ESPECIALLY ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS. YOU REALLY THINK THERE ARE ONLY 12.5% PEOPLE OF HISPANIC ORIGIN (OF ANY RACE) IN THE U.S.?? DO YOU THINK IT IS OKAY FOR ME TO GO OVER THE UNITED STATES ARTICLE AND PUT IN, "THE HISPANICS REALLY ACCOUNT FOR ABOUT 25% OF THE U.S. POPULATION AND THAT NON-HISPANIC WHITES REALLY ONLY ACCOUNT FOR ABOUT 59.1% DUE TO ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS AND THAT HISPANICS DON'T WANT TO FILL OUT CENSUS"? THESE ARE NOT FACTS EVEN THOUGH THEY COULD BE TRUE. ALL AMERICANS KNOW THAT THE HISPANIC GROUP IS UNDERCOUNTED B/C OF ILLIGAL IMMIGRANTS AND OTHER FACTORS. THE UNITED STATES ARTICLE PRESENTS ALL INFORMATION BASED ON FACTS, NOT POV OR ESTIMATION. ARE YOU EVEN FROM THE UNITED STATES, HARDOUIN??? IF YOU ARE NOT, DO I NEED TO EXPLAIN TO YOU WHAT A "NON-HISPANIC WHITE" AND A "HISPANIC (OF ANY RACE)" PERSON IS? IF YOU ARE NOT FROM THE U.S., YOU WILL MOST LIKELY NOT KNOW WHAT A "NON-HISPANIC" WHITE PERSON IS.

Anonymous user, anger is never the best way to express arguments... What you say about the US is a bit delirious. The Census Bureau in the US perfectly knows that minorities tend to go under-reported when censuses are conducted, as happens in all countries, and so after the census the Census Bureau always redress its figures to better reflect reality. They do the same in other countries. You can check the UK National Statistics website where they explain how they have redressed figures after their last census to better count under reports, if you are interested in these matters. About Vietnam, the fact that you were born in Vietnam doesn't make you necessarily more knowledgeable about Vietnamese statistics. I, for one, have a certain expertise in statistics built over the years, and although I don't pretend to know everything, I certainly do understand a bit about statistics. Again, the Hoa ARE NOT THE LARGEST MINORITY IN VIETNAM. Even if you don't believe the Khmer Krom figures and instead you prefer to believe the official Vietnamese figures, then check this official Vietnamese website [1] and you'll see that at the 1999 census the largest minorities were: #1- Tày (1.48 million), #2- Thái (1.33 million), #3- Mường (1.14 million), #4- Khmer (1.06 million), #5- Hoa (0.86 million), #6- Nùng (0.86 million). You are quite wrong when you say that Vietnam's ethnic distribution is quite stable. Actually, a lot of Hoa have left Vietnam after 1975, and so the percentage of Hoa people inside Vietnam is now much lower than it was before 1975. Hardouin 23:45, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Okay, I just looked at the link that you provided above and I am shocked at the statistics. I appologize for my ignorance and I have nothing else to say. As of right now, I am still speechless at the numbers from the vietnamese (communist) government statistics. It doesn't look right and I always thought the largest minority was the ethnic Han Chinese. Earlier I said something about Vietnam's population reaching 100 million. I was referring to the 2005 estimate, not 1999. That country has a high birth rate from what I have heard since people over there don't know much about contraception and/or the culture is too conservative to use birth control. Also, I do not trust any communist government, not just Vietnam. Well something must be wrong because that list is not even in order by population per ethnicity. The one I am looking at only has 862,371 for the Hoa. — UH Collegian 02:02, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)

OK, I can see that there are 2 groups here, that is Hardouin vs. all other Wikipedians. The thing is that, Hardouin CAN NOT provide a source for his statistics of 8 millions Khmer Krom ("Do your own" research is not a good enough response). I used to live in Vietnam (14 years), and coming back to Vietnam for good next year, all that time, I haven't met a single Khmer Krom in Vietnam both North and South Vietnam albeit I have met quite a lot of Chinese (Hoa), Laotians and some other minorities like Tay, Thai. The Khmer Krom concentrated around Phan Rang, Phan Thiet, Soc Trang,... however even in those areas alone, the population of Khmer Krom ethnic group can not make up even 5 percent of the total population. Do you know that Vietnamese population is just over 80 millions?? Do you know that 8 millions is roughly the population of Hanoi & HCMC (Saigon) combined?? If you think the statistics provided by the government of Vietnam & the statistics taken from Ethnologue website can not be trusted, then may I ask, how do you come to the knowledge of 8 millions Khmer Krom in Vietnam?? What is so special about it that make you believe it wholeheartedly?? I doubt you can even provide a source for your statistics.--lt2hieu2004 02:27, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I do not even know who the Khmer Kroms are. Is that the main ethnic group in Cambodia or something? UH Collegian 02:35, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)

To answer UH Collegian. Khmer Krom is the ethnic people of South Vietnam, although they are the same with the Khmer people of Cambodia, I believe the Cambodians refer to themself as Khmer rather than Khmer Krom (correct me if I'm wrong). Vietnam & Cambodia has a long history of conflict. The area of today South and Central Vietnam is land conquered from the kingdom of Champa. According to KKF - an organization outlawed by the Vietnamese organization, the population Khmer Krom all over the world is 8 millions, and Hardouin think all of those 8 millions live in Vietnam?? Even talk about Khmer Krom population around the world, I would think 8 millions Khmer Krom is a little bit exaggerated, the motive is clear: KKF is an organization aimed to re-establish the former kingdom of Champa.--lt2hieu2004 03:01, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Why such an aggressive tone? Can't you guys express ideas and opinions in a moderate cool tone? You portray this as a pitted war ("him vs. all other Wikipedians"), when it should be only a mature and relaxed exchange of informations and sources. Anyway, talking about sources, you can check these detailed statistics [2]: this is a research that was made in 1994 and that shows that there are about 7 million Khmer Krom in Vietnam (8.2 million in the world). The research used population surveys of South Vietnam from before 1975, and assumed a natural growth rate of 2.2% per year, which is quite credible. The survey also substracted losses in Khmer Krom population due to exile, untimely death, etc. This research was found credible enough to be broadcasted by the Voice of America in 1999. It was also found serious enough by the Seattle Post-Intelligencer to be reported in one of their articles [3]. The Vietnamese government says there are only 1.05 Khmer Krom in Vietnam, so that means there is a 5.95 million discrepancy. From what I understand, these 5.95 million people are reported as Kinh in an effort of Vietnamization of the minorities. The Vietnamization of the Khmer Krom is well known by Human Rights organizations, and there are many examples of this (people forced to adopt Vietnamese family names, children forced to attend Vietnamese schools, etc.). If, from your personal experience, you do not have the impression that there are that many Khmer Krom in southern Vietnam, remember that because of the Vietnamization policies many Khmer Krom, especially the younger generation, are now fluent in Vietnamese, so when you meet them in the street they will talk to you in Vietnamese, and you would not necesarily realize that they are in fact Khmer. This is especially true in cities and towns. I think the article should not just report official Vietnamese figures, but it should also report independent estimates of the Khmer Krom. In cases of controversies, the policy on Wikipedia is to report sources coming from opposite sides, and let readers decide which source they trust more. Hardouin 12:43, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Right, so you refuse to believe in website such as Ethnologue, you refuse to believe in the official Vietnamese government statistics and even refuse to believe in the World Bank. But for some reason you chose to believe in KKF, an anti-Vietnam organization?? People only believe what they want to believe :sigh:. I found the statistics on KKF is ridiculous, why? According to KKF, the population of Khmer Krom & the growth rate before 1975 is nearly exactly the same with the population & growth rate of Cambodia before 1975. Are they counting the Cambodians or are they counting the Khmer Krom? For your reference ([4]).

There is nothing strange about the fact that Khmer people, no matter which side of the border they live, have the same birth rate. Hardouin 29 June 2005 11:31 (UTC)

Well, if there is nothing strange about that, then the 80% figure, just because it is rounded, you claim it is questionable. Ask yourself, you know what is right. I have nothing more to say to you. You do not provide evidence, other than keep telling people you are correct & bashing others' evidence.--lt2hieu2004 1 July 2005 02:49 (UTC)

Moreover, the KKF claimed that they based their statistics on RVN statistics before 1975 but according to this Wikipedia article: South Vietnam, about 80% of the population of the RVN in 1970 is Kinh (Out of the total of 19.3 millions), that is roughly 15.44 millions.

There is no guarantee that this 80% figure is correct. RVN statistics are available nowhere online. I wonder who put that 80% figure, and where it comes from. The fact that it is rounded shows that it is not an official figure from RVN statistics. Hardouin 29 June 2005 11:31 (UTC)

That left 3.86 millions of Khmer Krom, Chinese, Khmer, Montagnard,... If the statistics on the KKF website was correct, there must be at least roughly 4.5 millions Khmer Krom in RVN at that time. Where the hell are all the Chineses, Khmer, Montagnard, Malay gone?? As far as I'm concern that is not even account for the massive number of Chinese 'boat people' leaving Vietnam around 1979 because of woresened relationship between Vietnam & China (which led to a small war in 1979). The KKF also claimed that 'the Vietnamese cooperated with the Khmer Rouge to massacre Khmer people', are they trying to rewrite history or something? And the Vietnamization policy that you are talking about, well, if that was true, somehow, they still have their own T.V channel, their own newspaper, their own radio channel, there are a hell lots of Khmer school, a lot of Khmer pagodas in Soc Trang and other areas. And when I say a lot, I mean it is much more of those than what is currently available for the native Indians in the U.S.--lt2hieu2004 16:27, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Leaving your strange claim about native Indians aside, you should know that the fact that there are Khmer media and schools in Vietnam is not a proof that there is no Vietnamization going on. Communist governments are usually very good at creating minority policies which appear great on paper, but have a murkier reality. Check China: in Tibet there are also Tibetan newspapers, Tibetan schools, and even a supposedly Tibetan government. Yet, everybody knows the Tibetan culture is being destroyed, and Tibetan people are being heavily sinicized. When native schools are not funded, when people are left so illiterate in their native tongue that only a small minority can read the newspapers, when religious freedom is officially allowed but in reality hindered by various means (in Vietnam the government refuses Khmer Krom pagodas to import buddhist texts written in Khmer from Cambodia), when the dominant culture (be it Chinese or Vietnamese) is promoted and presented as the only way to escape poverty, everybody can see that flaunted minority policies are just a hypocrit cover for cultural assimilation. Hardouin 29 June 2005 11:31 (UTC)

Look, I just want to tell you this: Please provide proof for anything you said. All of this discussion, you haven't been able to provide any proof other than bashing other people evidence. If you think only you are correct, then please tell me because in that case, no discussion is necessary. Can you tell me what evidence have you provide?--lt2hieu2004 1 July 2005 02:49 (UTC)

BTW why is this "In 2005, the retired king of Cambodia Norodom Sihanouk officially called for the end of Vietnamese annexations and an international demarcation of the boundary on the ground" IN Vietnam article? It's more about Cambodia than Vietnam. Why is it include in here? I guess Wikipedia is where we based our "numbers and statistics" on certain organizations than the official statistics of Vietnam, Ethnologue, and World Bank. Oh well

A dispute about the Cambodian-Vietnamese border is as much about Vietnam as it it about Cambodia, mind you!, and should appear in both articles. Hardouin 29 June 2005 11:31 (UTC)

I have yet to find any source that quote this information. Please provide source or I'm removing that part as well.--lt2hieu2004 30 June 2005 02:31 (UTC)

Just read any newspaper (foreign newspapers). Alternatively you can check Norodom Sihanouk's website were there is a copy of the official letter he sent to the government of Vietnam. Hardouin 30 June 2005 11:16 (UTC)

Well, I'm not living in Vietnam so I can not read any Vietnamese newspaper anyway, but still, I did not find that news anywhere. Last night, I searched the whole night on the Internet and it turned out nothing credible other than some forums. What is his website address btw? That would be the most credible source.--lt2hieu2004 1 July 2005 02:49 (UTC)

FYI, this is a copy of the official letter sent in March 2005 by Norodom Sihanouk to the government of Vietnam (among others): [5]. And this is a statement by the Cambodia's Border Committee officially set up by the Cambodian government and chaired by Sihanouk himself: [6]. And here you have the technical report in English of one visit by the Border Commission to some Cambodian border villages occupied by the Vietnamese army: [7]. Hardouin 1 July 2005 23:57 (UTC)

If there is no hard evidence from Hardouin within 2 days, I will remove that information. --lt2hieu2004 28 June 2005 04:11 (UTC)

In case of controversies, on Wikipedia we always list figures from all sides, and readers are the one who use their judgement and decide which figure they trust more. Check articles about Palestine or Tibet, there are always both government and independent figures listed. So it doesn't really matter if Khmer Krom organizations overestimate their figures, or if the Vietnamese government underestimate their figures. In this case we know nobody gives the real figure, so we have to list both. The real figure is in between both figures listed. Hardouin 29 June 2005 11:31 (UTC)

Hardouin, please keep in mind that anybody can post whatever they want on the Internet. If tomorrow I post an article to my website claiming that I'm the richest man in the world (richer than Bill Gates), can you just edit the Bill Gates article and add that claim?? Well, in this case, I know (and you know too), based on my calculation above, the figure quoted from KKF is wrong. The official figure from the Vietnam government, although you say that it is can not be trusted, you can not provide any proof that it is questionable, moreover, it is being used by World Bank & Ethnologue. People can not just edit an article on Wikipedia because they think that they are correct. According to CIA World Fact Book ([8]) which is known to not use official figures from Vietnam (look at the background section), they claim that 85%-90% of Vietnamese are Kinh. As I've said before, because you can not provide any hard evidence, I'm removing that part.--lt2hieu2004 30 June 2005 02:29 (UTC)

Your aggressive comments are becoming more and more chauvinistic and nationalistic. It is not because you have never heard these figures, it is not because they are disturbing to you, that they do not exist. Maybe you would prefer Vietnam to be a 100% ethnically homogenous country, but it is not, so stop with your nationalistic bias. To call Khmer Krom exile organizations "anti-Vietnam organizations", as you do, reveals a lot about your mindset. It is already fair enough to present both sources, governmental and independent. Hardouin 30 June 2005 11:13 (UTC)

Look, the fact is that you are the only one who can not provide any hard evidence & you are the only one who is aggresive here. Everybody who view KKF website can clearly see their anti-Vietnam attitude. If you think that their figure is correct. Then please, provide evidences, don't just talk. I have explained before, if you did not understand, then probably I'll have to explain again. Let see, according to KKF, they based their figure on South Vietnam figures, O.K, according to this article on Wikipedia - South Vietnam, the population of South Vietnam is 19.3 millions, out of that 80% are Kinh. You said that there is no guarantee that is correct. Well, who can discuss anything with you anymore?? Every single evidence, whether it is from South Vietnam, Socialist Republic of Vietnam or CIA, World Bank, Ethnologue, you claimed that those are not correct, but only the what you think is correct?? Please provide further evidences, otherwise, I'm off. I've nothing to say to you anymore. Waste of time.--lt2hieu2004 1 July 2005 02:49 (UTC)

Typical of Wikipedia articles, full of flaws and inaccuracies. Let go to southern Vietnam and see for yourselves how many Khmer Kroms there are. The last time I was there I hardly saw any Khmer, even in the border town of Chau Doc. The figure of 8 million by some Khmers is either exaggerated to serve their own purposes or that the KK all lived in caves when I was touring many places in Southern Vietnam.User:DaiVietVanTue

Hello, I am Australian-Khmer. I will provide my report on this controvesy of Khmer Krom population statistics. Hardouin is correct in every respect, that the population of Khmer Krom is at 8 million (with 7 million in Southern Vietnam - not Saigon) - KKKF statistics that is. I believe there is some controvesy between the statistics provided by the Khmer Kampuchea-Krom Federation and the Vietnamese government. Hardouin believes the statistics provided by KKKF is correct whilst the "other Wikipedians" in this discussion believe those statistics are biased by the KKKF compared to those by their so-called "reputable government". The KKKF has a believe that the statistics by the Vietnamese governments are underestimates of the "actual" population of Khmer Krom in Vietnam. There has always been controvesy between the sovereignty of Khmer Krom (and population) and Koh Tral island. Khmer Krom does not only live in Southern Vietnam but also in other parts of Vietnam (although minute). I don't endorse KKKF's statistics nor the Vietnamese Government but of course in me, I'll be inclined to go with KKKF since I am Khmer. (I hope you get what I mean):

• Khmer Kampuchea-Krom Federation: http://66.206.163.109/en/culture.php?articleID=11 8,240,000 population - Krom Krom (7 million in Vietnam, 1.2 million in Cambodia and 40,000 in other countries)

and there is the evidence that "suggests" that the Khmer Krom estimate of 8 million may be accurate:

• The birth rate of Khmer people is one of the highest in the world. http://www.uic.edu/classes/osci/osci590/15_1%20Families%20by%20Design%20or%20by%20Dafault.htm Quote "Today government officials cheer Cambodia's birth rate, one of the highest in the world.".

Yes, of course this figure of 8 million is only presented by KKKF - I admit that. There are no other reputable organizations that recognize this figure except those who are supporters of the KKKF. Why can't we just leave the official Vietnamese figure as is and put in brackets that so and so (KKKF) believes the population to be underestimate and so and so (8 million) here is the correct figure? Squash 4 July 2005 03:06 (UTC)

Please read my previous comment, as I've pointed out, the statistics provided by KKF is impossible to be true. Yes, it is probable that the number provided by the Vietnam government is not correct either but at least, it is compatible with statistics provided by other organizations all over the world and according to my own observation and others who had been to Vietnam, 1 million seems to be correct. Keeping in mind that Internet is where anybody can post anything, I think we should only quote from source which is reliable. That is if CIA World Fact Book said there are 7 million Khmer Krom in Vietnam then both figures should be in the article, but an organization like KKF, I think not. That is to help making Wikipedia better and to not transform the article into a mess of different figures from all kind of organizations no matter how unreliable.--lt2hieu2004 4 July 2005 15:43 (UTC)

I think the best result is to make mention of both. Squash 5 July 2005 02:50 (UTC)

I don't agree because what is the point of quoting a figure we all know that is impossible to be true? Let's not say about 7 million, even 4 million is impossible because KKF claimed they based their figure on South Vietnam figure in 1975. However we all know too well that the number of Chinese ethnic in South Vietnam in 1975 is around 2 million (most of them left around 1979 because of the war between Vietnam & China). Moreover, as a Vietnamese, I've never actually meet any Khmer Krom. You may, just like Hardouin, say that it is because of the Vietnamization policy the Vietnamese government is implementing on the Khmer Krom population that made them unable to speak Khmer. However, according to KKF, only 10% of the Khmer Krom population able to speak Vietnamese correctly. The more I read, the more conflict it become.

I am not a fan of the communist Vietnamese government at all, but I do believe their statistics when they report population and ethnic groups! Those damn communists (of any country) are good at counting populations because EVERYONE GETS COUNTED! Why and what advantage would they have to under-estimate the "Khmer Krom" population? Yes, I acknowledged that Vietnam is not a homogenous country. The census reported 86% are of Kinh ethnicity and I truly believe that there are 86%. However, in my personal opinion, I still think that is a lot since there are 53 or so ethnic minority groups. Communists are liars, etc. but I dont think they lie when reporting populations. Communist countries are very precise when they report population counts and ethnic groups percentages. If the United States was a communist country and we had a population count, you bet the population would be more than 300 million (not 284 million) with less than 69.1% being non-Hispanic whites, and more than 12.5% Hispanic origin people of any race and more than 12% blacks (non-Hispanic). In summary, I truly believe that there are about 85% or so of Vietnam's population are Kinh. There is no reason that the government would under-estimate the Khmer Krom or any ethnic minorities population. To my knowledge, Vietnam is not a racist or ethnocentric society like western societies. To my knowledge, ethnicity in Vietnam is not a big deal. People dont meet each other and ask, "What is your ethnicity?" like they do in the Unites States. To my knowledge, all ethnicity in Vietnam socialize and live together under one group, and that is being "Vietnamese". Most ethnic minorities in Vietnam or considered what Canada would call "silent minorities" and they mix in with the general (Kinh) population well with the exception of the ethnic Han Chinese (they stand out) and some of the "Montanards" (or however it's spelled) minority groups. Of course I also know that southern Vietnam is more diverse than northern. A few weeks ago, I went to the official website for Ho Chi Minh City (I call it Saigon) and the local government population statistic has Kinh accounting for about 80% of Saigon with 12% ethnic Han Chinese, making it the largest minority still in Saigon with the remaining percentages of other ethnicities. Yes I am aware that Saigon is not the whole southern Vietnam so you do not need to correct me on it. UH Collegian 8 July 2005 10:38 (UTC) My mother is Vietnamese(Kinh)and my father is Chinese. You keep refereing Han Chinese (nguoi Tau; mostly un-education Vietnamese hate Chinese so they call them boat People) are exceptional. Let me remind you that might be your ancestor were come from China too. I hope you are not be chauvinistic and too nationalistic. May God help us; all man kind are equal. _________________________________________________________________________________ I find all this arguing about how many ethnic Khmers there are in Viet Nam quite amusing. Some of the figures that were referenced by Khmer members come from a website that claims only 150,000 Cambodians died in the Killing Field. I am speechless.

Anyway, if anyone likes to find out the demographics of the former South Vietnam, the only indisputable source would be the United Nation databases although I'm sure the Khmer members in here would dispute that too. That is not all. It costs around $50-$100 USD annually for the privilege to use those databases. --Nông Dân 20:23, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

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Disparity between North and South

There is still some disparity between North and South - this was covered recently in some magazine, can't recall though

Yes, and there is a disparity between the central areas and the south, and between the central areas and the north, and between the lowlands and the highlands, between the central highlands and the northern highlands, between the coast and the inlands, between the river deltas and the drylands, between the Mekong Delta and the Red River Delta, and so on and so forth. My wager here is that there is no country on earth that lacks a disparity and that no disparity is neutral. So, again, yes, there is a disparity between north and south (Ho Chi Minh City and Hanoi are not the same place) but the important issue to highlight here is that there still exist strong political interests that wish to emphasise very specific disparities between North and South. Vichminh 15:26, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

This article

...is atrocious. There is no history or politics section whatsoever and the religion section consists of "Buddhist, Confucian, Taoist, Roman Catholic, indigenous beliefs, Islamic and Protestant" (oh, very informative, but your list of contemporary religions left off Jainism). You should see other articles on countries (such as United Kingdom, Germany, United States, etc.) and bring this article to a higher standard of quality.--naryathegreat | (talk) 17:51, July 20, 2005 (UTC)

The article had history and politics section, which was recently removed by somebody. I've restored those sections. DHN 18:54, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

Ah, glad to see that the article on East Timor is not better than the one on Vietnam, of all places. Sorry if I was rude, it just seemed a litle, um, stupid that the article was the only country article without such sections. Thanks--68.95.228.67 00:09, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

According to the coordinates given in the info box, Hanoi may be the capital of Azerbaidjan. Avia 07:28, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing it out. I fixed the coordinates. DHN 09:42, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

Hi

Hi, I have added some more info on the history section of Vietnam because I see that many of you were quite dissatisfied about the history section. Anyways you guys should feel free to edit it becuase i know there would be errors, after all im not that good in egrish (lol). Anyways enjoy!!

I think that detailed descriptions of the country's history should be at History of Vietnam to do it justice. DHN 19:25, 19 October 2005 (UTC)