Talk:Victor Henry Anderson/Archive 1

Archive 1

Support the merge

I support the merge. The content from this one should moved over to Victor Anderson. Kai MacTane 19:03, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Valerie Voigt's Research

That research was mine, and not ever intended for publication. I made the mistake of sharing, with a then-trusted (but no longer trusted!) individual, some preliminary notes from one conversation with Victor. Subsequent conversations showed that I had gotten some of the facts wrong. My notes from subsequent conversations give a much more detailed picture; unfortunately, Kelly and some others continue to circulate those preliminary notes. I was busy with family life, and out of touch with the Feri community, for quite a long time before I learned that the notes had been circulated. By that time, Victor was angry with me about those notes and didn't want to talk with me any more, and he was angry with me for the rest of his life. Understandable, but saddening for me.

BTW, Wikipedia does have articles on Hoodoo and on Cunning-Folk; much of the practical magic I experienced with Victor and Cora was very like a mixture of those two traditions.Valerie voigt (talk) 13:13, 16 December 2017 (UTC)Valerie voigt

Victor Anderson was a Kahuna?

There is nothing credible to substantiate that he was, in fact, any kind of Kahuna, nor that he was able to speak Hawaiian fluently. If someone can produce a recording of him speaking Hawaiian, or if someone can produce a document written by him in Hawaiian, it should be presented as evidence. So far, there are none. The article should be corrected to say that he claimed, or alleged, to be a kahuna and a fluent speaker of the Hawaiian language. --Maxwell230 22:23, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Grandmaster of the Feri/Faery Tradition

It is true that, as stated in the article, Victor and Cora are considered grandmasters of the Feri/Faery Tradition. However, the attached reference does not ever use the term "grandmaster". It is a valuable reference on the general topic so I am disinclined to simply remove it, but another reliable reference supporting the Andersons as grandmasters should be found, and this reference cited in reference to other details. Autumnalmonk (talk) 09:38, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

Yes, Victor was our Grandmaster, and Cora after him. This is generally acknowledged among Feri initiates. Victor told me, however, that authority in the tradition was "horizontal"--that is, the Grand Master is not in charge of anyone, but is respected as an expert senior initiate. There's no place to cite the horizontality comment, AFAIK, but there are citations available for the Andersons' Grandmastership. http://www.controverscial.com/Victor%20&%20Cora%20Anderson.htm (site of George Knowles, overall a pretty good researcher) http://harpybooks.com/Authors/Anderson-Victor.shtml The site of the Andersons' publisher, Harpy Books; Also on page 95 of Victor's book Etheric Anatomy; Also on the back covers of Cora's book In Mari's Bower; Also on the back cover of the Andersons' collaborative book Heart of the Initiate.Valerie voigt (talk) 13:13, 16 December 2017 (UTC)Valerie voigt

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Victor Henry Anderson/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: J Milburn (talk · contribs) 13:01, 1 May 2016 (UTC)

Happy to offer a review. It's very sad you've had to wait this long. Josh Milburn (talk) 13:01, 1 May 2016 (UTC)

• "Born in Clayton, New Mexico to a working-class family, a childhood accident left Anderson heavily visually impaired for the rest of his life." Shift in subject; Anderson is the subject initially, while the accident is the subject of the latter parts of the sentence.

  Good point. Corrected. Midnightblueowl (talk) 18:35, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

• "with Mexican, Hawaiian, and Haitian migrants led to him gaining an early understanding of these various cultures' magical practices" and "American folk magic"; have we appropriate articles to link to?

  It doesn't seem that we have any articles on American folk magic, unfortunately. I could add references to curandero, Haitian Vodou and Kahuna in the lede, though. Although these don't really fit with "Mexican, Hawaiian, and Haitian migrants"... Midnightblueowl (talk) 18:41, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

• "Regarding his ethnic ancestry, he later stated that "I am mostly Irish and Spanish with some Native American, including Polynesian",[6] and claimed that his maternal great-grandmother had been part of the community living in Appalachian who had blueish-skin due to methemoglobinemia." This sentence could flow a little better; also, do you mean "Appalachia"?

• Good point, I've changed this to "Regarding his ethnic ancestry, he later stated that "I am mostly Irish and Spanish with some Native American, including Polynesian". He also claimed that his maternal great-grandmother had been one of the Blue Fugates, a community living in Appalachia whose skin had a blueish coloration due to methemoglobinemia." Midnightblueowl (talk) 18:35, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

• What does "etheric vision" mean?

  I've added a link to Etheric plane. Midnightblueowl (talk) 18:46, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

• "He claimed to have been instructed in Vodou by Haitians who were working in southern Oregon.[12] In Oregon, he attended a school for the blind,[13] although was largely self-educated." Again, this could perhaps be smoother

  I've changed the latter sentence to "While living in that state he attended a school for the blind, although despite this was largely self-educated." Midnightblueowl (talk) 18:46, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

• "First Baptist Church" Link?

• I wasn't expecting that we would have an article on this but it looks like we do! Link added. Midnightblueowl (talk) 18:35, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

• I feel that in the first paragraph of the Harpy Coven section you present a number of (what seem to be) contentious claims in Wikipedia's neutral voice. They could perhaps do with being hedged a little more.

  I've made it clearer that this information comes from Voigt. Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:04, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

• "on the astral realm" You're the expert, but wouldn't that be in the astral realm?

• Not sure that I'd call myself an expert, but yes I agree that "in" is more appropriate. Midnightblueowl (talk) 18:41, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

• "After their marriage, the Andersons claimed that one of their first acts was to erect an altar." I assume you mean that "The Andersons claimed that one of their first acts after their marriage was the erection of an altar."?

• Good alternative. Changed. Midnightblueowl (talk) 18:54, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

• "a ritual was born to" Is born the right word?

• Changed to "a ritual was held to"; I don't know how I missed this mistake. Midnightblueowl (talk) 18:54, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

• "Pendderwen contributed to the development of their Feri tradition, with some members of the lineage viewing him as its co-founder." This is the first appearance outside the lead of the word Feri; it's a bit jarring

  I've gone with "what came to be known as the Feri tradition" here, which helps to smooth over the problems of this being the first mention of the term. Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:16, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

• "Pendderwen was particularly influenced in Welsh mythology," by?

• Corrected. This must have been caused by a mix-up between "interested in" and "influenced by". Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:06, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

• Your blockquotes are a bit odd; why have you done them "manually" rather than using a blockquote template?

• If you're referring to those in "Anderson's teaching" section, I did so because I thought that the information worked well as part of the main prose, however if you think it would be better for me to put the into side-aligned quote boxes then I am happy to do so. Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:28, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

• I'm not going to push it, as I can't see why it would be necessary for GA status. Josh Milburn (talk) 10:53, 8 May 2016 (UTC)

• "including mention of the Iron and Pearl Pentagram and the three souls" This significance of this is unclear.

  I've amended the sentence a little to clarify things. Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:28, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

• It's a little odd to have a "later life" subsection of a "later life" section.

• I've gone with "final years" as a replacement. Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:21, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

• "Systems of morality in Feri revolved largely around the idea of kala, a term borrowed from the Hawaiian language which Cora defined as meaning "keep oneself clean and bright and free from complexes within and without"." Your definition doesn't quite flow with the sentence

• I've made some amendments. Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:35, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

• "In this, her next sexual act with another person are considered her initiation" is? would be? was?

• I've gone with "would be". Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:35, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

• Could you check your section on the soul? It's a bit jumpy; something to do with the tenses, I think.

• I see what you mean. This really isn't a very well written paragraph is it. I've made some edits and hopefully the problems have not been overcome. Midnightblueowl (talk) 20:30, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

• "included gnomes, sylphs, undines, and salamanders" Links?

  Added. Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:12, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

• "Feri Craft" This term is only used once; it's a little jarring

  Changed to "Feri Wicca". Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:12, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

Ok, the following comments concern the references. I have a niggling feeling that people may have not been inclined to take on the review based on worries about these.

• The references to Anderson and his wife are potentially acceptable as primary sources (and, in many cases, they are backed-up by secondary sources), but I note the following concerns:
  • "After the birth, a ritual was born to dedicate the infant to the Goddess." Do you have a secondary reference for this? How important is it?

• Unfortunately I'm not familiar with any secondary reference here. Due you think that the claim is too contentious to rely on a primary source? Midnightblueowl (talk) 21:49, 7 May 2016 (UTC)

• It's not that it's contentious, it's just that I'm not sure of the significance of the claim. It feels like you're giving a lot of credence to the primary sources and what their authors considered significant. I'm happy to be contradicted if you feel I'm being picky. Josh Milburn (talk) 10:53, 8 May 2016 (UTC)

• • I am, I confess, concerned about the heavy reliance on the primary sources in the "teachings" section. Have they not been summarised in any reputable secondary/tertiary literature? I'm a little worried about giving over so much space on a Wikipedia article to these kinds of ideas if they have not received any coverage in the academic literature.

• I appreciate that view, and can definitely see your point (indeed, this was something that concerned me as I was putting together the article). Do you think it's worth me trimming back this section quite a bit? Midnightblueowl (talk) 21:49, 7 May 2016 (UTC)

• Yes, I think that would be the right way to go. Perhaps you could focus on what secondary sources have mentioned, using the primary sources to expand upon them. So (I'm making this up as I write) if a particular scholar picks up on the fact that Anderson had unusual and well-developed ethical views, you could open the paragraph with that scholar's view, and then use the primary sources to explain what those views were over the next few sentences. If no secondary source mentions his ethical views, maybe you could condense the discussion down to a sentence or remove the mention altogether. Josh Milburn (talk) 10:53, 8 May 2016 (UTC)

• "if a particular scholar picks up on the fact that Anderson had unusual and well-developed ethical views, you could open the paragraph with that scholar's view, and then use the primary sources to explain what those views were over the next few sentences.". I agree with this approach, although looking at the section in question, it already feels like it largely does this. However, I've also trimmed a few bits that are only based on Cora Anderson's book and found a few extra references in Doyle White's book that pertain to Feri beliefs about the soul. Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:50, 11 May 2016 (UTC)

• How reliable is The Witches' Voice? It's fairly obviously partisan- could you talk me through your choice to use it? (Same for Reclaiming Quarterly.)

• I'm happy with the use of The Witches' Voice, tbh. It's probably the most prominent Wiccan website, and has been around since the 1990s. I mean, it's significant enough that we actually have an article about it here at Wikipedia. Midnightblueowl (talk) 21:40, 7 May 2016 (UTC)

• "although preferred to refer to himself as "Grand Master and a fairy chief"" Could you attribute that claim in-text to Faerywolf?

• Done. Midnightblueowl (talk) 21:49, 7 May 2016 (UTC)

• I hate to say this, but... Are you being a little generous in describing Kelly as a "scholar"? According to our article, he has an MA in creative writing, but no training in religious studies or related, and no affiliation with a university. The books you cite are published by new age publishers (one of which he runs) rather than academic presses.

  According to this website, Kelly gained a PhD in theology from the Graduate Theological Union and subsequently worked as a lecturer at various American colleges and universities. His studies of early Wiccan history developed from part of his doctoral thesis, despite the fact that he has published that research through a popular format rather than an academic one. Midnightblueowl (talk) 21:40, 7 May 2016 (UTC)

  Ok, that's fair enough. Josh Milburn (talk) 10:53, 8 May 2016 (UTC)

• Following previous practice, I'm happy to let the Deadfamilies link slide for GAC purposes.

• Many thanks! I do think that the deadfamilies articles can be a really good source of information although it does mean that I probably won't be trying to take this to FAC any time soon. Midnightblueowl (talk) 18:35, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

• You don't seem to be using the interview at all?

• I've moved the interview to the Further Reading section. Midnightblueowl (talk) 21:43, 7 May 2016 (UTC)

No concerns with Adler, Berger, Clifton, Doyle White or Rabinovitch. Other primary sources seem to be used appropriately.

So, in short, I'm sorry to not be as positive as I normally am with your articles, but I fear that the sourcing is less-than-ideal. In an article on such a fringe topic, this is something which worries me a little. Perhaps you'll be able to offer some explanation or make some changes which will calm my worries somewhat. (Please double-check my edits.) Josh Milburn (talk) 14:23, 1 May 2016 (UTC)

Many thanks Josh; I think that I have dealt with everything now. I agree with your general concern about the sourcing, but have hopefully done enough to bring it into GA territory. Midnightblueowl (talk) 20:28, 15 May 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for the note; this is definitely going on my to-do list. If I haven't got to this in a week, please feel free to leave angry messages on my talk page. Josh Milburn (talk) 20:38, 15 May 2016 (UTC)

Second read-through

Ok, back for another look.

• "was left visually impaired following a childhood accident" This offers more certainty than is presented in the article body. How about just dropping the cause?

• That's a good idea, I'll remove it from the lede. Midnightblueowl (talk) 18:52, 28 May 2016 (UTC)

• "Most of them had been immigrants from the Southern states, mainly from Alabama." Perhaps you could have something like "according to Voigt" or "Voigt concluded that"? As I'm reading this, there's a genuine open question about whether this "coven" even existed?

  I've opened this sentence with "As related by Voigt". Midnightblueowl (talk) 18:52, 28 May 2016 (UTC)

• Perhaps Category:American accordionists or a subcategory would be a good addition. I know he wasn't famous for this, but if he did it for a living...

• Good idea - added! Midnightblueowl (talk) 18:52, 28 May 2016 (UTC)

• "At the time of his death, he was still running his coven, Nostos or Blue Circle." Where these new covens? These terms aren't mentioned elsewhere.

• From reading the sources available, I'm really not sure whether these are new covens or the same coven from the past. Accordingly, I've changed the sentence to "At the time of his death, he was still running a coven, which was known as Nostos or Blue Circle." Midnightblueowl (talk) 18:52, 28 May 2016 (UTC)

• Feel free to disagree, but perhaps you could cut the following lines: "Cora stated that "in our tradition the Gods are not mere concepts but real spirit beings, and are part of the same life-chain of which we and all other creatures are a part".[64] Cora stated that the God of Christianity was "a vile and unclean male spirit of a low nature" who rebelled against the Goddess and Divine Twins when he desired dominion over the Earth; after being refused, he fled to his "lower state in bitter anger" and began to proclaim himself as "the one and only God"." This feels like you're just reporting Cora's ideas about theology.

• I don't think that they really bring anything particularly important to the article so will remove them. Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:00, 28 May 2016 (UTC)

• "The Andersons also expressed a belief in reincarnation, believing that the allocation of one's future births were organized by karma.[78] They taught that between incarnations, a soul could travel to one of nine etheric globes, all of which "surround and penetrate the solid Earth".[79] They further taught that in this etheric region there existed "well-defined classes of nature spirits" which included gnomes, sylphs, undines, and salamanders.[80]" This strikes me as a little over-detailed; unless a reputable secondary source has picked up on this, perhaps this could be condensed (it doesn't need to be deleted, but perhaps you could bring it down to one sentence).

• I've merged the second two sentences into one Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:07, 28 May 2016 (UTC)

• "They believed that the Witchcraft religion had emerged in Africa" Who is the "they" in this this sentence?

• The Andersons - corrected in the prose! Midnightblueowl (talk) 18:54, 28 May 2016 (UTC)

• Are you attached to the external links? Perhaps they could be trimmed? Not a demand, just a suggestion!

• I'm not particularly attached to any of them, but they might be useful to readers who want to learn more given the dearth of good academic studies examining the Feri Witchcraft tradition. Midnightblueowl (talk) 18:54, 28 May 2016 (UTC)

This is looking better, but I'm still not quite ready to promote yet- apologies for that. I still think the teachings section could be cut down a little bit, but I've given some specific suggestions above. I'm not feeling as nervous about the sourcing as I was previously. Josh Milburn (talk) 10:24, 21 May 2016 (UTC)

Many thanks for your time, Josh. Do let me know if there is anything else that you'd recommend be changed in the article. Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:07, 28 May 2016 (UTC)

Great, I'm happy to promote at this time. While I don't think I could support this article's promotion to FA status (sourcing being my concern), I think it makes a fair good article. (I remember reading that one of the motivations for the GA project was to recognise articles which would not be able to reach FA status due to a topic being little-known or the absence of sources.) I'm happy that the article is well-written and neutrally-presented, and it makes for an enjoyable read. It will be a valuable resource for readers. A pleasure working with you, as ever. Josh Milburn (talk) 10:34, 29 May 2016 (UTC)