Talk:Vegeta/Archive 1

Name disambiguation

This fictional character could exist from 1984 or so, while the food complement of the same name has existed since 1959 and is sold worldwide nowadays. Would anyone mind if I made this page a disambiguation? --Shallot 12:26, 3 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I think the character Vegeta is more well known, likely to be the result of someone's search for this word. Perhaps it'd best if you made a small link at the top or bottom of the this page to Vegeta (food), which is common practice along with disambiguation. Oberiko 13:06, 3 Jul 2004 (UTC)

That depends of the person's cultural background. I've never heard for manga character Vegeta before, yet my grandmother cooked with Vegeta all the time and we still use it in our household. Then again I come from the same region of Europe as Shallot. --Romanm 22:23, 7 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Well, you could always do the Google test, it's usually pretty accurate. Oberiko 01:06, 8 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Google test can be wrong when dealing with real-life. We can't expect that the product that my grandmother used would gain the same on-line publicity as fictional character with subculture around it. :-) But does that mean that most people think on the manga when they heard the word? Not here they won't. It really depends on cultural background, IMHO. --Romanm 00:26, 9 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Also it fluctuates a lot. When I first asked the above question, the Podravka (the producing company) web site was number 9 in a google search for Vegeta. Today it's deep into the twenties or thirties. Probably due to the simple fact they have just a few short/useless pages about Vegeta.

Anyway, despite the fact it's not an online hit, it's possible to find pages about it in various languages, and a few other interesting factoids. I'll go make a page for it and sum it up. --Shallot 10:10, 9 Jul 2004 (UTC)

As an aside, I found a search for 'Vejita' doesnt redirect to the page, and I think a large number of fans, and some of the video games romanise it that way. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Azrael666 (talk • contribs)

Google says 2,770,000 pages with "Vegeta" and 33,900 pages with "Vejita". That's about 1%. It doesn't hurt to add a redirect, and they are cheap, but the other/older name is really only common on extremely old imports and on some "unlicensed" merchandise. JRP 20:05, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

It's been done (I made Vejita redirect) Infinare 23:37, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

Fanon regarding name

It's a common bit of fanon that, after settling down with Bulma, Vegeta adopted HER last name to simplify legal matters and such. As a newbie to Wiki's, I don't know if this is justified in being included or not...? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Thanos6 (talk • contribs)

Probably not. Generally fanon is avoided when possible. Oberiko 20:09, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Thanks. If I had included it, I would of course labeled it as fanon, but I didn't know if it would have been appropriate at all.Thanos6 02:23, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Their children definitely have Bulma's surname (as Vegeta doesn't have one) but it's a stretch for Vegeta to have taken it. It's still debated whether or not they are married. Noneofyourbusiness 14:28, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

This is true. Vegeta does refer to Bulma as his 'wife' in both the anime and manga, but it is uncertain whether or not they are married in the legal sense.

Why is He Still a Prince

I don't understand why Vegeta calls himself the prince of all saiyans. After his father, King Vegeta, is killed by Freiza, shouldn't Vegeta have become the new king of all saiyans. Thats the way it usually works. When a king dies, his heir to the throne, the prince, becaomes the new king. However, Vegeta continues to call himself a prince even after his father is dead. Why is that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.157.66.57 (talk • contribs)

There's no answer ever given in canon, but the generally accepted theory among fans is that he had to go through a coronation or some other ceremony to make him official king. Thanos6 19:24, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

I think it's funny that he calls himself the prince of all Saiyans, when "all Saiyans" consists of an amnesiac and two or three halfbreeds who all more or less consider themselves human (and don't care in the least about his royal lineage). Onikage725 16:05, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

What about when Paragas comes to earth. He calls Vegeta King and Trunks Prince. KojiDude 18:38, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Because he's (supposedly) trying to anoint him king of a new empire. It's easy for Vegeta to stay prince because he isn't a monarch, there's noone left to rule. Maybe he's reserving the title of king because at first he wants to displace Freeza, and later he settles down and has a family, so he never gets the chance to sieze ultimate power. Onikage725 22:54, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Vegeta's feelings for Bulma

Bulma does NOT call Vegeta her husband in the dub; Mirai Trunks himself says his parents getting together were a "passion thing." Vegeta didn't have any kind of feelings for her beyond sexual until Cell was destroyed and he really began to "settle down" with her and Trunks. Thanos6 03:12, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Re: I've never heard Bulma call Vegeta her husband, no. But I haev heard Vegeta call Bulma his wife in the Buu Saga, when they were on the Planet of the Kais while Goku tried to offer Bulma's kiss to Elder Kai in order to use Namek's Dragon Balls for Earth's well-being

Now was this in one of the dubs that you heard Vegeta say this, or was it in the original? And does it have support in the manga? There are a lot of things that were changed in the English (FUNimation) dub, and this may be one of those things. If that is the case, then it is is not considered canon/valid, and should be dismissed.

Daishokaioshin 15:16, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Even in the English dub, Vegeta doesn't refer to Bulma as his "wife", at least not in the scene you're referencing. Vegeta: "Hey! Kakarot! You wouldn't happen to be talking about Bulma by any chance? Oh, you are, aren't you? You idiot! How could you! Don't you have any sense at all? Let him kiss your woman!" DBZ Episode 263

I was watching an episode during the tournament phase of the Buu Saga and Bulma calls him her husband. However this is the translated anime.Darkwarriorblake 10:57, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Vegeta still refers to himself as a Prince because referring to himself as a king would be disrespectful to his father, King Vegeta.

(A) Wrong section. (B) He didn't respect his father. (C) By that logic no monarchy would have a king beyond the first. Noneofyourbusiness 17:03, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Mirai Trunks came from a timeline that vegeta is dead so Mirai Trunks statement is most likey false,The part about vegeta calling bulma his wife is right here http://www.nfsupreme.com/hostees/dranet/mangas/photo.php?file=/Dragon%20Ball%20%26%20DBZ%20Manga/volume42/Db42ch07/420705.gif

Are you sure it says "wife" in the original Japanese? Noneofyourbusiness 01:32, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

yes....

Just not true, Vegeta never said this in the original manga or anime. Besides the website you posted contains manga pages yes, but they don't have the original english translation, making them a bad source to back up your statements.

Core4Sure

Age? Year of Birth?

The opening of the article claims Vegeta was born in the eighth century but in the body it says he first appeared in DBZ at the age of 29. Two important questions: (1) Where are these numbers coming from and (2) Why do they disagree? I will remove the eighth century one as it seems the most far fetched but please, if you know what's going here, correct me. --Do Not Talk About Feitclub (contributions) 10:04, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

They came from the timelines given in the Daizenshuu. Thanos6 18:33, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

I don't know what that is. Still, my second question still stands. Why do they disagree? --Do Not Talk About Feitclub (contributions) 11:29, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

The Daizenshuu are basically huge DBZ encyclopedias published in Japan that fans in America buy off eBay or places like that. They say he was born in the eighth century because DBZ takes place in the 700s according to the timeline in one of them. Thanos6 17:24, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Really? Is this considered canonical? Is a timeline of DB events laid out anywhere on Wikipedia? I'm going to raise this question on one of the main articles (either Talk:DB or Talk:DBZ) because a lot of articles seems to use these dates and without context, they don't make any sense to the casual reader. --Do Not Talk About Feitclub (contributions) 08:03, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Well, they were published by Toei, and Akira Toriyama contributed. So I would assume that except for the couple of times when they make a rare mistake, they're canon. And though it says the "700s" it's not the Earth version of the 700s, obviously. Thanos6 12:36, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

One thing is for certain. Vegeta is confirmed to be one year older than Bulma.

Trivia

Aww is ther no trivia for Vegeta? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 210.86.113.85 (talk • contribs)

Images

Wiki-star: I kindly ask that all users not remove any images without a purpose. These images help the reader visualize the character Vegeta. Thank you for you're understanding!

Wiki-star 23:41, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Beg pardon? Reasoning was given, even before you vandalized my personal page (by mistake or not).

Most of the images were off Cartoon Network and watermarked, no good for Wiki. If you want pics from these eps, cap from FUNi's DVDs or find a clear image, don't google it or rip one from another website. Any still present will be removed and replaced if a decent screen is available. Also - you deleted info from techniques while adding pics yourself.

[Before edit] Anyone reasonably familiar with editing would tell you the format was bad. The glut of pictures made the article sloppy, and overlapping the way they did makes following the text difficult for some readers. Aside from being an eyesore, the number of pics was way outside of fair use.

"If you don't want your writing to be edited mercilessly or redistributed by others, do not submit it."

Don't assume others are against you, doing things "without purpose": Wiki is a collaboration. If you've got a beef with what was done, discuss it here first, not on the Wiki help desk or on others' personal pages. I'm no Wiki deity, and am up for talking things over with fellow Wikipedians anytime. Papacha 00:55, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Wiki-star: Yeah, it was a mistake with me adding that question to you're user page. I apologize. I immediately deleted it seeing my mistake. Now, my good sir. If you haven't realized, many of the images that you claim to be "Washed Out" are still within the article. And those are images that myself contributed. So whats the big idea buddy? You might wanna explain yourself just a bit more if you may!

Thanks! Wiki-star 10:07, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

I *had* thought perhaps a few of your pics can stay, but seeing you seem to be all about quality control now I've deleted them all. You're welcome. Papacha 14:42, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Just kidding. Despite your pics being overall poor and improperly sourced, in moderation they're alright in the base of the attack article (so long as the latter is fixed). And you not liking the answers is no reason to explain myself further than I've already chosen; either you fail to understand or entirely disagree. Dirt simple. If you wish to be as confrontational in the future as you are now, by all means continue.

I'd ask you to read your own work as well to see general consensus on your pics (too many and without fair-use rationale). You should apply advice in help provided or what's the use in asking at all?

Take care in the mean time. The Vegetto pic will be deleted for being too high-resolution, per Wiki standards. Papacha 15:06, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Recently this page was full of cr*p (it still isn't very good) and awkward images(showing only nappa or only nappa and tenshinhan) ...And it had two "Appearance" sections SSJ 5 00:06, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Geez... near 50 pictures! I suggest deleting at least 35-40 before an administrator arrives and deletes them all. -- ReyBrujo 03:03, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

I totaly agree with ReyBrujo... SSJ 5 12:26, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Edits

Since it was requested that I discuss things here:

I fixed a large number of typos, and awkwards sentences, as well as repeated information, things out of order in the sequence they occurred in, and false information. Turles and Brolli are not canon, and should not be included in this article. Yajirobe cut off Vegeta's tail AFTER Gohan and Krillin came back. The name of the species is "Saiyan" not "Sayain". These mistakes and others were fixed, and will be re-fixed in just a moment. If you don't like people making changes to your edits, DON'T SUBMIT THEM. If you want to contribute, please spell-check before you do so. Please attempt to have a proper grasp of grammar and diction, and when an appropriate time is to place a sentence, as well as what sentences are unnecessary.

Thank you.

Daishokaioshin 05:05, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

• Wiki-star: Thats great that you have corrected errors, but you didn't just correct in your edit. You also deleted information that was not false! I have redesigned this article alittle bit more organized, and much like all the other DBZ Character Articles, such as Buu, Vegetto, etc. Also, i do not care as to whether or not Broly and Turles are not canon. They are surviors of the Sayain Extinction from Frieza's assault, and i will name them regardless of what you think. If you find that this information is false, then please correct me. If not, do not delete them, because i will continue to add them again! Thank you for you're corrections. Keep up the good work!

Wiki-star 05:46, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

This is an article about CANON INFORMATION. If you don't care if information is canon or not, then DO NOT ADD ANYTHING. You are HURTING wikipedia by not using valid information. This isn't about what I think. This is about the FACTS. Please research the facts before saying you don't care and will keep adding in false information.

Daishokaioshin 06:35, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

• Wiki-star: What is false about saying Broly and Turles survived Frieza's assault? That is true my friend! Frieza could've searched and Killed them both if he was aware of their existence. I don't understand you, but try and explain whats false here!

Wiki-star 06:43, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

The problem is that Broly and Turles were movie-only characters. Whether non-canonical characters survived something doesn't matter, because they never existed in the main storyline. If this were an article which included the events of the movies, I would have no problem with Turles and Broly being named as survivors. However, this is NOT such an article, and thus they must be excluded. This isn't about my personal preferences. Please understand that I am only trying to keep valid information on wikipedia, and have no problem with you personally.

Daishokaioshin 06:48, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

• Wiki-star: Oh ok! That clears up alot of confusion i had about this! No problem, thanks!

Wiki-star 16:59, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

I myself, dont see the problem in adding non-connon information, as long as it is stated to be non cannon. If you were to add Brolly and Turles as survivors you would put it as: "Outisde of the Cannon continutity, Brolly and Turles are also treated as survivors of the Saiyan race". So as long as it is stated to be Non-Cannon I dont see the harm in adding it

Brad92 16:14, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Article Enhancements

Good day fellow contributors! As you can see, the Vegeta article has a new look, but same information. I myself have contributed greatly towards the change within this article. I realize that many past contributors have a problem with the current change, while others may like it. Some contributors even post a "clean up" message to get a contributor's attention. I would like for us to talk about the article's current format, and how we as contributors of this wonderful site can enhance it's features and information. Also, if you're a Dragon Ball Z fanatic like myself, and cruise around other DBZ character articles, be sure to introduce yourself in the talk page! Once again, lets discuss the article's pros and cons! Thanks!

Wiki-star 03:59, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

I am tagging the article with the cleanup tag again. There are just _too_ many images that add nothing to the article. Please remove the ones that do not add to the understanding of the article, per eighth guideline: The material must contribute significantly to the article (e.g. identify the subject of an article, or specifically illustrate relevant points or sections within the text) and must not serve a purely decorative purpose. -- ReyBrujo 04:00, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

I you were to delete images from this article, you would only delete about 3. Many of the images do contribute to the article. It's just that there are so many huge points to make, it seems the images are just added for decorative purposes. At least, this is through my point of view.

Wiki-star 04:32, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

To give you a few examples: The one in Appearance and the one in Behind the Saiyan are the same, but one shows him fully. The first two in Frieza Saga show him against Frieza. In the Android Saga/Cell Saga, you don't need a image of his new Super Saiyan form since you can already appreciate it in the other where he is battling Android 18. Nor you need the first of his "Ascended" form since you already have him in the one where he is battling Cell. Do you need that picture with his farewell? What does it add to the article? Then, in the Buu Saga section, the first three images have him in the exact same transformation with the exact same clothes. Only one would do, since this is not Goku, Trunks nor Pui-Pui article. Then you have one pic where he is being possessed and another where he is battling Goku, which can be removed because it adds nothing to the article (Vegeta doesn't change his hair to red, or his halo becomes brown, or anything that hasn't been already shown). The image of Vegeta preparing a final explosion adds nothing to the article, otherwise you will soon be adding one image for every of his attacks, which is decorative. Two images of Vegeta fighting Boo are not necessary. This is Vegeta article so you show Vegeta. He is Super Saiyan 2 in both images. You can add those two images to Boo article because you are showing there Boo's transformations, but not here. Vegeta having a picnic, what does it add to the article? That he can eat food? ;-) In Super 17 saga there is yet another image of Vegeta in his Super Saiyan 2, that makes 3 images in total of that transformation. This is a decorative image because it adds nothing. He only changed clothes, but we won't be adding one image per every set of clothes he was using while transforming, will we? ;-) Then, in the Forms/Transformations, we have yet again an image for every of his transformations, which there are already in the article.

And this was a quick review at 2:00 a.m. and just before going to sleep, so imagine if my mind were sharper ;-) -- ReyBrujo 04:54, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Hehehe, I just read this part again, The image of Vegeta preparing a final explosion adds nothing to the article, otherwise you will soon be adding one image for every of his attacks, and found the section about his attacks. That was eerie :-D -- ReyBrujo 04:56, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Excuse me? 90% of what you just typed would be completely hilarious to a Dragon Ball fan. Most of the images you suggest to be removed, do not! The first 2 images are fine. The first image talks about his appearance, which means his upper bodylike features. He has 2 feet and 2 arms like everyone else, but he looks different. So thats why the first image can stay, that image absolutely does not need to be eliminated at all. The 2nd image shows his whole body, because he is being discussed in "Behind the Sayain". He is the sayain. It also adds a visual image of how Vegeta is. None of the images in the Freiza Saga need to removed, because they all show in against Freiza, or dying by Freiza. Now if i am correct, Freiza is the title of that section, so of course he needs to be in these pictures. Vegeta is to main character, so he also needs to be in the images. The Android/Cell Saga, i would say the only image that can be eliminated is the one where Vegeta is saluting Trunks. The others show him perfectly. The first image gives a close up on Vegeta's new Super Sayain form. The others just show him fighting in the level. One image in the Android/Cell Saga shows Vegeta in his Ascended form. Again, this is a close up and perfect view of him. The rest can stay. In the Buu Saga, there are just about no images in this section that can be deleted. The first image shows Vegeta, and his son Trunks. This image gives a picture of Vegeta after 7 years after Cell, and his offspring. So this image is fine. The 2nd image shows Vegeta and Goku within Babidi's chamber. This image can be deleted, but it has a minor purpose of introducing Babidi. The 3rd image sees Vegeta fighting Pui Pui, which he did. This image can stay, as it gives battles in which Vegeta was involved. The 3 pictures with Vegeta as majined ABSOLUTELY stays! None of those pictures should go, as they give visual aid to the reader about how Majin Vegeta came about, and what he did. Now, if i'm correct, this section is titled "Buu Saga". So i'm assuming Buu is within at leats one of the images. In that case Vegeta is fighting Buu in 2 of these images, and Buu is the major enemy. So, none of those pictures can go. The opne with vegeta picnic, shows the end of Dragon Ball Z, and Vegeta's settlement.

As for Dragon Ball GT, i'm not really done with that yet, so i can't say. Like i said before, if you were to delete images from this article, you would only take away about 3.

Wiki-star 05:27, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Hmm... it seems we will have to discuss per pairs in order to reach an agreement, which will be too long. Let me tell you something: it is not necessary that every section (or worse, paragraph) has an image. Agreed? Also, about your statement that 90% of what I said is funny to Dragon Ball fans, this article is not only for Dragon Ball fans, but also for casual users who want to know about Dragon Ball, do not forget that, otherwise your article will be worthless. Let's begin with the first and the third images. Do you really need both images? The first image shows him above waist with the broken armour, the third shows him fully. With the third image, you don't need the first, unless you are showing how his armour is broken. Even their face is similar. Can't you remove the first and put the third in its place?

Oh, and I am formatting the page per talk page guidelines, otherwise it will be impossible to hold a long discussion. -- ReyBrujo 11:43, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Look, this isn't a perfect article, but who cares? It provides information, and gives resources from other sites to look at. If you don't like it, oh well. We're still going to contribute!

Wiki-star 06:02, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Rather than saying "oh well" perhaps you should try to work with others to create an article which is as close to perfect as possible. The manner in which information is presented should match the rules outlined by Wikipedia. If you refuse to follow the rules, because you want to do things your own way, then this likely isn't the place for you. The rules aren't hard to follow, and are there for a reason. Please try to work WITH other contributors rather than AGAINST them. Is that really so hard?

Daishokaioshin 06:16, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Stop labeling me as the enemy around here. I really don't have the time or the energy to be waisting away with the likes of you. Too many things need to accomplish around here. But back to the original topic, the images can be deleted. But keep those that make each section visisble and interesting for the reader. Thanks!

Wiki-star 07:31, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

I'm not "labelling you as the enemy". Stop being so defensive, and stop being so arrogant too. Saying you "don't have the time to waste away" with the "likes of me" doesn't make you look like someone who is interested in working with other contributors to enhance Wikipedia as I have requested that you do. You seriously need to fix your attitude problems before you make anymore edits. I have not done or said anything to you to provoke such a response. It was YOU who decided to start hurling insults because you couldn't provide any proof to back up your claims that Buu was named the things you said he was. Are you really going to make a big deal about that, by trying to make ME the enemy? Also: Start using the correct format for talk pages or your comments will be deleted. Other people shouldn't have to "waste time and energy" fixing things that you should have done correctly in the first place.

Daishokaioshin 18:44, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Wiki-star, I am sorry if I have offended you. I thought I have been civilized through all the discussion, but if our meeting stressed you, sorry. I was trying to give feedback to this article after having helped expand/correct hundreds of others. To tell you the truth, this article was the first one I have ever seen in Wikipedia with over 20 images (until I saw the List of South Park episodes with 155 images). An article is not based on images, but instead in what is written.

I know some people work very hard in articles and get sad or angry when their contributions are modified or deleted by other members. I have been angry a couple of times, but that is only at the beginning, then you understand that you are not the owner of articles, not even the ones you have created. I have watched most of Dragon Ball Z episodes, and read around 100 booklets of the mangas, but if I am asking here it is because I have seen/read about this at least 5 or 6 years ago. I know I could have modified the article myself, but I preferred discussing in a Talk page with the most active contributor.

I gave you some of my opinions, and if I change the article, I will do that based on those opinions. You preferred to first dismiss my comments as hilarious, and then decided against discussing them. That is not really polite, but I always assume good faith and guessed that you haven't really discussed with anyone around. Discussions, unless personal, are always to improve relationships or articles, so please do not think we (or I in particular) are/am attacking you.

Please, continue improving the articles you can, as that is the spirit of Wikipedia. However, I suggest you that, whenever you have time, begin reading the different Wikipedia guidelines to write even better articles. -- ReyBrujo 02:16, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Z Senshi/Fighters

Technically, the name Z Fighters is never used in the series. Nor is Z Senshi. However, Z Senshi is the generally accepted group name for those who watch the Japanese original, and read the manga. I suppose for those who rely only on the english dub, Z Fighters is acceptable for them.

There is no reason to change it from Senshi to Fighters, but also no reason to change it back. In the future, if you're going to cite the series as a source, make sure that the series actually uses the name of something before making edits.

(If the narrator used the term 'Z Fighters' it's not really the same thing as one of the characters using it. I believe 'Earth's Special Forces' was the original name used by the narrator, even so.)

Daishokaioshin 04:20, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Majin Vegeta?

Could someone please tell me how Majin Vegeta is stronger than SSJ2 Vegeta later in the series? Majin Vegeta was pretty much owned by Fat Buu, and Vegeta later went to blows with Kid Buu as an SSj2. Sure it was a losing battle, but he did at least as well as he had earlier against Fat Buu (suicide attacks not withstanding), and considering that Kid Buu was FAR more lethal than Fat Buu, wouldn't that speak to Vegeta's greater strength at that later point in the series? After dieing he lost the Majin spell but he kept at least some of the benefits of the experience (seeing as how he easily attained SSJ2 when he needed to). This could be due to having tired himself out against Goku and then eating a senzu (which should have triggered a Zenkai powerup that he'd keep past the duration of the mind control). I'm not sure if death/revival triggers the powerup, but if so he would have another large boost after coming back to life. Onikage725 19:52, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Majin is an enchantment that releases all restrictions on an individual. This can be physical, emotional, moral, or whatever. It also includes one's power and ability to improve. While there was initially a lot of hostility and "evil" released from where Vegeta had been containing it within himself, he displayed his love for Trunks, and a selflessness when he tried to destroy Majin Buu by self-destructing, that he would never have displayed without the Majin enchantment releasing his psychological restrictions on showing those emotions and qualities. Similarly, Vegeta's inner power had all restrictions on it lifted, and if he had remained Majined, his power might have become far greater than what it would have been otherwise. But since he died before he could become that strong, all we know for sure is that he received a power boost from Majin, and the boost may or may not have remained with him.

Ignoring the speculation on what might have been, though, and coming back to your question, it is hard to tell whether SSJ2 Majin Vegeta was stronger than SSJ2 Vegeta of later in the saga, but your point is a good one. He could fight somewhat evenly with Kid Buu for a short while, but there may be other factors aside from sheer power. For one, Vegeta was unfamiliar with Buu's capabilities when he fought him while Majined, and thus was taken off guard. Later in the saga he had fought not only Majin Buu, but also Super Buu (as Vegetto), and a representation of Evil Buu's mind. Kid Buu was strong, but he also didn't seem to be as intelligent, fighting only by instinct. It's possible that the combination of his experience fighting assorted versions of Buu, and his determination to buy time for Goku to form the Spirit Bomb, allowed him to fare better than he did in his initial confrontation with Majin Buu, by fighting a less-intelligent opponent (Kid Buu).

This isn't to say that Vegeta wasn't stronger, just that there may have been other reasons besides or in addition to such a hypothesis. By the end of the Buu saga all the major participants in the battle are so incredibly strong that it's hard to discern just how strong they were EXACTLY because you only have three people to compare (possibly four if you count Gohan). In the end, all we can really say for certain is that Vegeta is weaker than SSJ3 Goku, probably Kid Buu as well, and we don't know how he stacks up to Mystic Gohan. To claim Vegeta is any stronger or weaker than anyone else without an in-depth comparison and analysis is speculation and shouldn't be part of the article.

Daishokaioshin 20:29, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Hm, the confusing point is that it's not so much how he stacks up to others, but rather how he stacks against himself. Though it would be safe to say that he's under Gohan, since Mystic Gohan > SSJ3 Goku. And Gotenks as an SSJ3, of course. My sense on Majin vegeta vs SSJ2 Vegeta is that Majin Vegeta is the deadliest he's ever been, for the reasons you mentioned above. he had no attachements. But being brutal doesn't necessarily equate to a higher level of strength. Onikage725 05:32, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Why do you say that Mystic Gohan was weaker than SSJ3 Goku? Goku lasted longer against Super Buu than Gohan did. We don't know how strong Gohan was compared to SSJ3 Goku. That's why in his article it says he is "at least equal to SSJ3 Goku". His power was most likely equal to Goku's, but just because he was suddenly stronger and faster than he had been before, his skill was still lacking, thus Goku was overall more powerful, since skill is a factor when determining "power" (as in "fighting power" not "Ki reserves").

Daishokaioshin 05:39, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

It says "this form is said to be equal with that of Goku in his Super Saiyan 3 form," but I counter that with this: Said by whom? Certainly not in any official material. Definetly not in the series itself. At most it's debateable, hardly conclusive. It's also "said" that SSJ3 Gotenks is stronger than Goku, and Mystic Gohan certainly outclassed him. And if the evidence is Gohan vs Super Buu against Goku vs Kid Buu, then it's really a question of Super Buu vs Kid Buu. I still say Super Buu, on a power basis. It's heavily debated, but Kid Buu fought an SSJ2 (which even Fat Buu could scoff at) and Goku, who was exhausted and couldn't draw on his full strength (limits of the SSJ3 form, too exhausting for a living body). Many people throw out that Kaioshin was the most afraid of Kid Buu, but who could blame him? Kid Buu wiped out most of his pantheon. That could be purely psychological. It's not that Kaioshin thought Super Buu couldn't wipe out everything, it's that he knew Kid Buu would. Keep in mind he pretty much crapped his pants upon seeing Fat Buu too, but Fat Buu was nothing compared to Super Buu. Also, when faced with Super Buu, Goku only thought of not needing fusion when Super Buu 2 lost Gotenks' power. Certainly beatable with Gohan fighting at his side. By then Gohan could probably have done it alone. When faced with Super Buu 3, there was no "hold him off Vegeta, while I power up SSJ3." It was "oh crap we need to fuse." I would assume that Goku, being a brilliant battle strategist and judge of his opponents, wouldn't use a drastic action like permanent fusion if he felt he could do it under his own power (especially when his fusion plan was initially with is own son).Onikage725 01:56, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree with everything Daishokaioshin said, except about Mystic Gohan. He had a chance to get used to his new abilities because of his fight with Evil Buu.

KojiDude 18:54, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

The reason I said that Gohan as a Mystic was less skilled than SSJ3 Goku was that Goku had been training for seven years in the Afterlife (possibly longer, since things work differently in the Afterlife than they do in the living world), while Gohan was studying books. Gohan only had about a month or so to train before the Tenkaichi Budokai. And then he had a couple more days on the Kaioshin Kai after East Kaioshin and Kibito took him there, and he drew the Z Sword. That isn't enough time to come up to the same skill level as a pure Saiyan who has been training non-stop for seven years. Gohan was determined, and made remarkable progress, but he just didn't have the time to become as good as Goku.

Daishokaioshin 20:59, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Ok, we're way off topic on the Vegeta question by now. But with the Mystic Gohan thing, Gohan is most certainly stronger than Goku, at least while alive. FPSSJ3 would likely be the most powerful state, but the only time we could possibly have seen that would be movie 12 and thus non-canon. While alive, the SSJ3 state puts too much of a strain to be effective in the long run. Gohan had no such strain. So even if the power was on par, Gohan would be in an optimal state and Goku would be pushing a rigorous transformation. Skill? Yeah, Goku's the "best" warrior on the team. The ever-arrogant Vegeta even says as much. But skill and power aren't the same thing, and we're talking about power here. Lil' 4 y/o Gohan was stronger than Raditz when angered, and one blow from him damn-near killed his uncle. Raditz was unquestionably the most "experienced" fighter of the two, because that was Gohan's first "fight" ever.Onikage725 00:53, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

Goku never fought Super Buu. Vegeta was 'owned' by both Kid Buu and Fat Buu, no sense in saying 'he kind of sort of made a mediocore stance against Kid Buu' especially considering the initial blows he had on Fat Buu led to nothing just as his blows led to nothing with Kid Buu. How is Majin Vegeta stronger? He said he's stronger now. Pretty concrete evidence. Vegeta did not need Babidi's help to achieve level 2, he only needed his help to enhance it. It's pretty clear that Majin Vegeta is stronger than regular Vegeta. As far as Gohan vs Goku goes, it's clear that Gohan > Goku > Vegeta, since a) Super Buu is far stronger than Fat Buu and Gohan completely dominated even more than Goku did against Fat Buu. b) The reasons listed above about Goku not sustatining level 3 for any real time.

Yes and no. Goku had a scuffle with Super Buu 2, in the anime. It was fairly brief, and Buu lost the Gotenks fusion shortly thereafter. The thing is, it isn't good evidence of how Goku stacks up to Buu because it's filler. It's no more fair to look at that fight and say Goku could roll with Super Buu than it would be to look at the filler fight between Gohan and 4th form Freeza (when he thought Goku was dead) and say that Gohan had enough power to actually shed Freeza's blood. It looks cool in the show, but is nothing more than that. Onikage725 16:01, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Actually, yeah Goku DID fight Super Buu. He fought Super Buu as a Super Saiyajin 3. His fight was inconclusive, since Super Buu lost the power of Gotenks before the battle could be decided either way. Vegeta may not have won against either Fat Buu or Kid Buu, but he fought well against both. VERY well against Kid Buu, considering Kid Buu was stronger than Fat Buu. Why do you say that Vegeta "kind of sort of made a mediocre stand against Kid Buu"? Didn't you see the episode where the two of them fought? Vegeta did pretty well considering he was only SSJ2. And as for his blows "leading to nothing", so did SSJ3 Goku's, and people don't think that makes Goku weak. SSJ3 Goku could have beat the snot out of the version of Majin Buu that resulted from "Bad" Buu eating Fat Buu, since he was able to fight evenly with Super Buu (Fusion version), and Gohan was "owned" by that same Buu (Super Buu: Fusion version, I mean).

Daishokaioshin 05:48, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

Super Buu w/ Gotenks + Picollo is a completely different creature from Super Buu alone. No Z fighter could have matched his power, save Vegetto and possible Gogeta (but is he a Z fighter). VERY well against Kid Buu? Did you not see that episode or what? That would be like saying Gohan did VERY well against Frieza because he got a few hits in that did no damage. Further, after those 3 hits, never again did Vegeta even touch Buu. (btw, it was literally 3 hits. I just watched the episode =p) Buu wasn't even trying, he was playing around with Vegeta. However, with Kid Buu vs Goku (level 3) it's clear that both are fighting at their max. Not to mention Goku said he could have finished Kid Buu off early, but he wanted to save some fighting for Vegeta. Goku stood no chance against Super Buu w/ Gotenks. That's why he *needed* to fuse. After that he never fought him again, as Super Buu w/ Picollo immediatly fused with Gohan. Finally, as stated earlier, Super Buu w/ Gotenks is compeletely sepearte from Super Buu alone. Gohan defeated the latter, quite handedly too, but neither fighter stood a chance against the fusion. We can never prove one fighter is stronger than the other, but what we do know is that Goku cannot keep up tht power level for a significant amount of time. So in an allout battle, Gohan would most likely come out on top. P.S Majin Vegeta is stronger

Hmm... Perhaps I need to rewatch that episode, if that is the case. I guess I made a mistake. However, you seem to be confused about something. Super Buu is the name Buu used for himself after he began absorbing the Z Senshi. The version of Buu that resulted from Thin/Bad/Evil Buu eating Fat Buu has no name aside from "Majin Buu". The Budokai games confused a lot of fans on this issue by calling that version of Buu "Super Buu" when that isn't his name at all. I WAS trying to differentiate between Thin/Bad Buu and the Buu's next form, on the Buu article, by calling Thin Buu "Thin Buu" and that next stage "Evil Buu" but Wiki-Star got into an edit war with me, and refused to back up his claims that the names he is trying to use are canon, and I'm just tired of trying to revert stupidity on here, so I'm not doing any more edits to DBZ articles themselves. See the talk page for Buu for the entire discussion. At any rate, I believe that is where the miscommunication between us happened. You are using the name "Super Buu" to refer to the stage of Buu that comes between Thin Buu/Evil Buu and the actual Super Buu form, and I'm using Super Buu to refer to Super Buu in all his forms, with notation when I am referring to a specific version.

As for Majin Vegeta, we don't know ABSOLUTELY FOR SURE that he is stronger than SSJ2 Vegeta of later on. My personal opinion is that they are the same strength. Majin raised Vegeta's power with magic, but once Majin was gone, most people assume that Vegeta lost that power. But is this necessarilly true? My theory is that Majin just helped him GET to the level he reached, it didn't actually PROVIDE the power. Majin releases restrictions on an individual, allowing Vegeta to use his own inner power to become stronger. Vegeta might have become even stronger if he had remained Majined, but he didn't, so he remained at the same level he was at when he died. That's my hypothesis anyway.

Daishokaioshin 17:20, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

I need you folks to understand something about this series. Majin Vegeta is Vegeta's most powerful form before he transforms into a Super Sayain 4. Why? Because he never achieved Super Sayain 3, and that was when his power was obviously at it's pinnacle. Vegeta was absolutely no match for ANY Buu. Now, Onto the Mystic Gohan and Super Sayain 3 Goku theory. The first thing i need for you all to understand, is that these two characters are NO MATCH for Super Buu w/Gotenks and Piccolo, and Super Buu w/Gohan. So lets ignor those two Buus, since there powers required Fusion. I would assume that Mystic Gohan is more powerful than Super Sayain 3 Goku, only because he is stronger than Super Sayain 3 Gotenks. Keep in mind that once the user transforms, Super Sayain 3 generates an enormous amount of Energy. According to Goku, this is the reason this level takes so much power. It starts off with a GREAT deal of energy and strength, but Gradually it will reach a point where Super Sayain 2 is stronger than it! So i hope this clears up any confusion of these characters.

Wiki-star 03:47, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

You don't know for certain that Majin Vegeta is stronger than SSJ2 Vegeta from later on. If it were "obvious" that Majin Vegeta was stronger, we wouldn't be having this discussion. Before you go interjecting your comments into conversations, try reading what other people have written. You might see that several valid points have been brought up on both sides of the argument, and that there is NO definite way of determining whether Vegeta was stronger or weaker. Finally, every single time you type "Saiyan" you spell it "Sayain". Learn to spell. It's not hard.

Daishokaioshin 05:32, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Alright guys, as far as I know, and what i've heard there are several good arguments that suggest either Majin Vegeta or Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta is stronger. Because there is no offical evidence that confirms this, we should adjust the article accoridngly, so that it says "it is unknown wetaher or not Majin Vegeta is stronger Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta...simple as that. We've got to stop thinkging, that each one of us known more than the other, because that's what thse arguments/debates seems to revolve around

Brad92 23:00, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I made a couple of edits to reflect that. Does anyone disagree? Onikage725 16:16, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

What do you mean you don't know that Majin Vegeta is stronger? Vegeta himself says he is now stronger as Majin Vegeta. Vegeta says he needed Babadi's magic to increase his power, just as Yamu and the other guy needed Babidi's magic to increase their power. Without it, he wouldn't retain the same powerlevel, he would fall to his former, relatively weak, powerlevel.

When Vegeta referenced his Majin strength, it was BEFORE the SSJ2 state that is under discussion here. We are talking essentially about his power when he fought Goku against when he fought Kid Buu. What he says about his power in the earlier fight has absolutely no bearing on the later state. How could he possibly compare himself to a later stage when he hasn't gotten to that point yet? There is also no hard evidence to say that Vegeta could become an SSJ2 prior to the mind control, but he clearly had no problem transforming after. He's not the same as Yamu and the others. He's a Saiya-jin. The flood of rage triggered not just a boost in power, but a latent transformation. One that he kept after losing the spell. On top of that, he ate senzu after the fight with Goku. Later he died and then was resurrected. So it comes to a question of Babidi's spell vs two zenkai powerups. And by the way, all of these points were made above, some more than once. In addition, people sometimes overlook the dramatic angle- when he fought Kid Buu, it was to protect those he loved. He always fought for himself, for selfish reasons. He had his big epiphony during that part of the series that the reason Goku was the best was that he fought for others. Wouldn't that give him that same "edge" he felt Goku had, as opposed to when he fought on blind hatred? Onikage725 02:16, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

No. 1) There is proof that he was able to achieve SSJ2. Since he stated he was stronger than Gohan, Gohan was in SSJ2, so it's only logical that Vegeta was able to achieve SSJ2 aswell. 2) Fighting for someone he loved made little difference. As explained in 'Vegeta's Respect'. No matter if he's Sayain, it's the same magic. Also, don't forget when he fought Kid Buu he was still technically dead, so there was no increase in his power level that might have arisen from being wished back. Further, Vegeta was nowhere near death after fighting Goku, so the senzu bean would do little to increase his power, so that theory is out the window as well. So unless you want to make the arguement that wishing him back from the dead DRAMATICALLY incrased his powerlevel, it's clear that Majin Vegeta is the strongest state of Vegeta. (save ssj4, but I always found that a bit silly)

1) Gohan wasn't fighting at his maximum. Vegeta even stated his disgust with Gohan's slacking, and said he was weaker than when he fought Cell. So Vegeta being a better fighter at that point has nothing to do with whether or not he could transforminto SSJ2. Was there mention of a tramatic event to trigger the change? No. Was he shown making the change prior to becoming a Majin? No. Anything you say to the contrary is pure speculation. One could even argue that Gohan may not have been an SSJ2 himself. One has to practice with a form to get comfortable with it. He transforms quickly and with a noticeable lack of lightning. He also trained very lightly between sagas. So Gohan during the Dabura fight wasn't the height of his power by far, and Vegeta wouldn't have needed to transform to SSJ2 to out perfrom him.

2)It did make a difference. The whole point was that Vegeta realized his selfishness as his shortcoming. It would be utterly anti-climatic for him to make this whole shift and achieve redemption if his pinnacle was the height of his selfishness. And considering that this article mentions SSJ4- in GT he kept up his training and was certainly stronger as an SSJ2 than he was during his brief stint as a Majin. And what I'm saying about the magic is this: Yamu + )V( = )V( Yamu. Minus )V( = Yamu. SSJ Vegeta + )V( = SSJ2 )V( Vegeta. Lose the )V(, we still have an SSJ2. And as for being dead, he was granted his body- so yes, there was a power gain. If one couldn't improve their power while dead (but with a physical body), explain to me how Goku achieved SSJ2 or SSJ3. Onikage725 15:40, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

1) Gohan was fighting at his maximum. It just happened that his maximum was much weaker because he hadn't been training. It is shown that Gohan achieves level 2, when fighitng Kabito he says 'this is level 2'. And since Vegeta says he is stronger than Gohan *after* seeing him transform to 2, it's clear that Vegeta could also achieve 2. It just makes sense. Note, I wasn't talking about his fight with Dabura. 2) No it didn't. Vegeta says 'I found myself with a family of my own' and he clearly cared for them as he said before, but then he went to say 'and I didn't see my power rise at all'. Refering to Vegeta increasing his power during death. I was merely stating that any increase in power that Vegeta may recieve from being wished back from the dead, wouldn't have happened during his fight with Buu since he was still dead. Besides, Vegeta was dead for like 2 days, he hardly could have made any real progress. So your only hope at showing SSJ2 Vegeta is stronger than Majin, is saying that wishing him back from the dead sustantially increased his power. Which I find very hard to believe.

He was NOT at maximum. Kaioshin says in Babidi's spaceship, "Are Super Saiyans really that strong? Come to think of it, it was hard to paralyze Son Gohan when he was a Super Saiyan...and he wasn't even at full power?" Before he became Mystic, Gohan's maximum only ever comes out when he's enraged. When did he unleash on Raditz? When his father was being tortured. On Nappa? When Piccolo was killed. On Freeza? When Kuririn was gored, when Piccolo was nearly killed, and when he thought his father was dead. Cell? Witnessing the senseless murder of 16. Gohan wasn't "motivated" when fighting Dabura. And I'm referencing the Dabura fight because you're referencing it. You're quoting Vegeta on saying he was better than Gohan- he said that out of anger that Gohan's fight with Dabura was dragging on so long. And Goku kept insisting that Gohan could do it. Later Goku gave that pep talk to Gohan, implying that Gohan was (as he always does) holding back. Quote: "Get angry Gohan. Remember the time you fought Cell, and bring out all the power you have. You can't lose to anyone that way...anyone!" Vegeta himself even hints at as much. Quote: "We're stronger than he is now. Of course we never know what may happen when he gets mad." It really wasn't until he saw the Buu Sphere that he flipped out. Also remember this: Dabura was said to be on par with Cell. By your logic that means Vegeta was at that point above Cell. But that claim wasn't made until he was fighting Fat Buu, where it's said "He's broken through the Super Saiyan wall! He's stronger than Gohan was when he fought Cell." That declaration on Majin Vegeta wouldn't have been at all impressive if he was that strong before the spell. And Vegeta's saying that his he had a family was during his Majin state. His getting comfortable on earth wasn't the same thing as what I was talking about. He later gives himself to good and lives for others, just like Goku. At the point you referenced, he was talking about a time where he had "a very wicked soul" (Dabura) and was "dripping with pure evil (Babidi). Also, Babidi states while making him a Majin that he is bringing out his "latent powers." There is NOTHING to suggest that once Vegeta ceased to be a Majin his innate powers went to sleep. Babidi brought the power out of him, he didn't give it to him. And for death, I'm saying he was granted his body even before ressurrection. And a warrior with his living body can clearly improve while dead. So he would have had the power up even then, from when his body was healed and restored. If anything, his dead body was stronger. Goku says as much, warning him when he's granted life to be careful. Whether it was upon restoration of his body or of his life essence, he would have gotten stronger. And when he fought Goku, he wasn't mortally wounded...true. But he was severly beaten. They beat each other to a pulp. Both where gasping for air, cut up, bruised all over, tired out when Buu was released. Vegeta says he needs senzu because they had both used up alot of energy in the fight. He was exhausted and beat up before eating the senzu. Vegeta got beat up by Reacoom, ate a senzu and went to "stronger than Jheese," slept for a little while and shot up to something comparable to 1st form Freeza. Don't tell me recovering from his epic battle with Goku resulted in no improvement at all. Onikage725 18:19, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

I might be wrong, but from what I remember, Vegeta "owned" Buu. The only time Buu was winning was when he used the Angry Exploshin attack and when he wrapped Vegeta up in his skin. Other than that Vegeta was beating the heck out of Buu. I'll have to try and get that episdoe(s) to be sure, though. I was alot younger when I saw it.

KojiDude 19:56, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Non-Canon Saiyans and Pics

I honestly don't at all see the specific point in mentiong non-canon movie villains in a section on Vegeta's childhood. I made a small edit in the childhood section to draw disinction between the survivors of Freeza's genocide and the movie-only villains. I made this distinction because if I flat out remove them, someone's just going to throw them right back in. And I'm also going to second the notion above that there are too many pics. 2 pics of Oozaru? Or any other transformation? There are transformation articles and a transformation section within this article. I think one (maybe two) pics in a saga section as a highlight would work fine. Vegeta fighting Ginyu? That fight was insanely short. Two pics of Vegeta scowling at Gohan? Three pics of him getting embarrassed by Freeza? Vegeta standing next to a tree, standing next to Trunks, standing next to Goku, standing in front of Pui Pui, 3 Majin pics, 2 pics of him fighting Buu, and him at a picnic? This doesn't need to be a self-contained visual guide to the entire series. This is an encyclopedia- people can find their own multimedia, there's a wealth of picture sites out there. That isn't wiki's function. And out of curiosity, is there a reference or link for the Vegeta/Batman thing?Onikage725 17:42, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Warning

Orphanbot has detected that most of the pictures on this article fails to possess the appropriate Copyright status. I have reverted these changes, but it will only be temporairily. If someone would like to step foward and give the necessary copyright status please do so, it would be greatly appreicated. Until then i'll do some myself. Thanks.

Brad92 20:15 28th April 2006 (UTC)

This article would be better off with fewer images. Fix the copyright status thing if you want, but adding the images back into the article would just clutter it up, make it slow to load again, and abuse the Fair Use Policy of Wikipedia. I know that YOU know this, Brad92, but I'll say it for others who read this: A bunch of images do not a good article make. This is an encyclopedia, not a pictorial. A few pictures are fine, but fifty of them are utterly unnecessary.

Daishokaioshin 18:43, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Wholeheartedly agree- leave 'em off PLEASE. Onikage725 19:50, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Guess you got a point there

Brad92 12:53 29th April 2006 (UTC)

When Vegeta went SSJ2

This came up a few times earlier- when did Vegeta go SSJ2 for the first time? One camp thinks it was prior to the Buu Saga's beginning, others say it was a result of his latent powers being brought fore by Babidi. I noticed something while reading through the manga yesterday though. In the manga, being able to transform into a SSJ2 is often referred to as having "broken through" or "surpassed the Super Saiyan wall." That being said, when Vegeta squared off with Fat Buu, Piccolo looks on in amazement and states that Vegeta has broken through the Super Saiyan wall, and was stronger than Gohan had been in the Cell games. The exact line is written in the Majin Vegeta discussion above. That would signify that SSJ2 was something new for Vegeta, right? If Vegeta had transformed prior to the Buu Saga, surely Piccolo, who sensed Goku halfway across the planet in the Saiyan Saga, Freeza from halfway across Namek, and later sensed Freeza from outerspace, would have sensed it. Goku also spent a good portion of the early stages of the inflitration of Babidi's ship gauging everyone's power, and he felt he could take Vegeta quickly at his maximum...until Vegeta unleashed his (arguably) new form.Onikage725 13:11, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

Re: Yeah, this issue is a VERY hot topic to debate on. Personally, I feel Vegeta reached Super Saiyan 2 before the Majin powerup/transformation because he said he was stronger than Gohan while Gohan was fighting Dabura and I refuse to believe a SSJ could outpower a SSJ2 no matter how much power the SSJ2 (unless he lost the ability to transform into a SSJ2; Gohan did not). Also, I dont get why Vegeta would be able to transform into a SSJ2 after he lost the Majin power and not just return to his old power level (which I think would make sense if he had already achieved SSJ2 during the 7 years). But yeah, hot debate topic

SSJ2 Vegeta blew Gohan away with his energy so as a SSJ2, he far outclasses Gohan. Base wise, Vegeta is far stronger than Gohan and his Super Saiyan form augments this. Especially considering how much training Gohan failed to accomplish over the years since the Cell saga. Compare this to Vegeta's already greater base strength, not just unlocked potential, and 7 years of training himself to severe injury and healing...

The problem is, he didn't display it until he went Majin, now its possible of course that he was hiding it because thats what Vegeta would do. He'd save the best for last in the tournament though I'm of the camp that Vegeta couldn't transform because he wasn't pure of heart or purpose without Goku around. There was noone to fight, no challenge, no reason to push himself that far considering he never thought he would see Goku again.

Darkwarriorblake 16:01, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Re: Vegeta did reach Super Saiyan 2 before the Buu arc. Arguments for this:

Vegeta was not impressed by Gohan's SSJ2 power, when Gohan showed the form to Kibito. No way SSJ Vegeta>>SSJ2 Gohan.

Vegeta was not greatly shocked when he saw Goku go SSJ2 during Goku's fight with Yakon. However, he did saw Goku's power.

Vegeta only wanted to become Majin Vegeta so that his own SSJ2 power, would be equal to Goku's SSJ2 power, closing the gap between them.

And how about this, when Vegeta came back from the Otherworld he wasn't under Babidi's spell anymore, so he would have lost his Majin Power-up. However he was still able to transform into a Super Saiyan 2. In the manga he clearly used it against Kid Buu.

Core4Sure

Super Vegeta

Small edit- I just made mention that Vegeta refers to himself as Super Vegeta for the first time when he fights #19 (""Kurae! Koitsu ga Supâ Bejita no... Biggu Bang Attakk-u da!"). In the English dub, the line was "Here it comes! A little going away present for you!" So I also put a note in the Ascended section pointing out that in the dub, that was the first time he used the nickname. Onikage725 13:40, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

Images Re-Added

• Wiki-star: I'm currently re-adding most of the images in the article. I'm also going to finalize this article, to the point all the main information for Vegeta is given. Thanks again contributors!

Wiki-star 20:52, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Article too long?

There is a lot of unnessesary info and speculations like VEGETA'S STRENGTH section!!?!?!? There should not be such things in here 81.18.55.28 19:57, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Man, you're going article to article huh :p Onikage725 00:01, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Eh? 81.18.49.185 10:21, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Images

I have alot of Vegeta images that are copyrighted and that I could use, and I already added two of them to the article (AscendedSSJVegeta.jpg and MajinVegeta.jpg) But they aren't like the other ones that are in the table-like thing. Sorry if I'm confusing you but I'm new. I would like to know how to put them in the tables, and if it was ok for me to do so.

Well, there's already enough images of Vegeta on the article. There's a Fair Use Policy for Wiki that lets us know that we should try to keep the number of copyrighted images to a minimum. Screen shots can be used, but only when it is necessary to show something that cannot be described accurately in words.

Also, generally, images are inserted ABOVE the thing they're supposed to represent, not below it.

Daishokaioshin 22:50, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Ok,but could somone please tell me how to put images in the tables? When I put them in a paragraph they are always just there and not set up right I don't know why

KojiDude 19:47, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, Could someone please tell me how we can upload any picture since I tried that a lot put everytime they send to me a message that my picture will be deleted after 7 days, And so could anyone change the top picture for Vegeta I don't think that it's a good one, If anyone can put a picture for Vegeta from DBGT it would be more better since his face and body changed for better and his shape is more better in GT, And is there are any way to include a picture for more attacks/techs it would be more better too.thanks for everyone.--Astrys 01:45, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Vegeta married to Bulma

Vegeta calls Bulma his wife when he's yelling at goku.See?

As the article Bulma(mother of children) is this means that the relationship between Vegeta and Bulma is a Whoredom or what could anyone explain.Astrys 19:36, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

-I doubt that. Vegeta doesn't treat Bulma like a 'whore' in the series. Trunks mentions Bulma saw how lonely Vegeta was, but that doesn't mean she just hopped in bed with him out of pity. Vegeta doesn't show much devotion to her during the Cell Saga, but by the time of the Majin Buu Saga he treats her more like a male/wife although glimpses are rare. For example, why else would he be furious at Goku for promising a nude picture of Bulma to the Old Kaioshin?

Vegeta j.r.

Should'nt the article mention Vegeta j.r. is a descendant of Vegeta. Even though that's non-canon. We should include every bit of information even if it's not pertaining to the original storyline. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 12.214.215.219 (talk • contribs) .

Where's SSJ3?

As most fans know, Vegeta ascends to the level of SSJ4 in Dragonball GT but never obtains his SSJ3 form. Could this have something to do with the fact that he reaches SSJ4 in Dragonball GT? Or is there another reason why? --Sasuke-kun27 21:05, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

He didn't need SSJ3 to Become SSJ4 Also if he wanted to become ssj3 he needed to do it in another dimension. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 162.84.240.12 (talk • contribs) .

Re: That's not true, it was never officially stated that SSJ3 could only be obtained in The Otherworld/ROSAT or any other dimension. It was stated that SSJ3 was relatively easy to reach in the other world, however, even though it would be very difficult, it was never stated that SSJ3 could not be reached in the normal dimension.

Also, a Saiyan can transform into a SSJ4 even if he has only reached the regular SSJ. SSJ4 is nothing more than the result of the controlled power of the Golden Oozaru, which is a Saiyan in his Oozaru form, combined with his SSJ powers. This would make Goku's Golden Oozaru transformation stronger than Vegeta's because Goku's Golden Oozaru form had SSJ powers up to SSJ3 in him, while Vegeta's Golden Oozaru form only had SSJ power up to SSJ2.

This would be a clear explanation, but we will never know for sure, since there was not much explained about the SSJ4 form.

It could also be that SSJ4 would just be a referrence to the Legendary Super Saiyan from Vegeta's Story. Vegeta told us, that the LSSJ could only maintain his SSJ powers in his Oozaru form (Golden Oozaru) but he could not controll his power so he eventually died. However, Goku could control his Golden Oozaru form, which resulted in SSJ4. (Vegeta does not count since he did not obtained the form naturally.

All theory, since not much of SSJ4 was told to us...

Core4Sure

Goku's Golden Oozaru is not stronger. It doesn't matter what level of SSJ they have reached. SSJ4 is equal in power to Golden Oozaru, as stated in the anime and article itself.--KojiDude (talk) 00:08, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Not only is that speculation but it doesn't make any sense either. Nothing about becoming SSJ4 is "natural". Goku was forced into the form of a child by magic and then had his tail pulled out. How is that any more natural than using Bruits Waves to transform? And if anything, Goku's Golden Oozaru form would have been WEAKER than Vegeta's since he was weakened when he was changed into a child. As an SSJ3 he couldn't match Vegeta when Bebi was controlling him. SSJ forms don't "add up" when changing into a Golden Oozaru. You transform, and your power is based on your normal form, just like with Oozaru, and then the power of SSJ is applied to it. That's all.

Also, yeah, what KojiDude said. SSJ4 is CONTROLLED Golden Oozaru not "Stronger than Golden Oozaru".

Daishokaioshin 00:11, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Re: I never said anything about SSJ4 being stronger than Golden Oozaru, aside from that I did state that what I said was just pure speculation since not much is told to us about SSJ4 and I also said that SSJ4 is Golden Oozaru controlled, so no point saying that to me I guess. Daishokaioshin you say Golden Oozaru is just an Oozaru with the SSJ power applied to it, true, but only SSJ 1?? I guess we don't know for sure...

Core4Sure

Yay.

In DBGT, I know it isn't exactly: "REAL", is Vegeta stronger than Kid Goku?--suit-n-tie 04:47, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Picture.

That picture next to the Vegeta and Bulma section isn't an official translation, therefor, should it be removed?--Suit-n-tie 01:57, 13 September 2006 (UTC)