Talk:Varadaraja V. Raman

Content discussions

Closing per request at WP:ANRFC.

There is a rough consensus to exclude the mention of the Charlie Hebdo chapter because Smith & Franklin is viewed as a predatory publisher.

There is no consensus to include the Carnegie Award with editors disagreeing on whether the award is trivial.

There is a consensus to restore the Raja Rao Award for Literature. How it should be presented in the article is a matter of editorial discretion. CNMall41 recommends presenting it in summary form which I find to be a reasonable view. If there are disagreements, I recommend discussing on the talk page.

Cunard (talk) 02:00, 9 February 2020 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Why not published book chapters?

Proposed: these should be included with other publications:

• V.V. Raman, "On Terrorism and Blasphemy," in Islam, Culture, and the Charlie Hebdo Affair by Stephen Suleyman Schwartz, Hussein Rashid (Smith and Franklin Publishing, 2013).
• "Thoughts on Deism and Pandeism," in Pandeism: An Anthology of the Creative Mind (John Hunt Publishing, 2019) ISBN 1789041031.

Hyperbolick (talk) 16:31, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

Support inclusion

• Support as nominator. Hyperbolick (talk) 16:31, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

Oppose inclusion

• Smith&Franklin is a predatory publisher. ∯WBG^converse 18:59, 9 September 2019 (UTC)
  • Not even terribly important at this point. Hyperbolick (talk) 19:04, 9 September 2019 (UTC)

Propose restoring award from those including Carnegie Foundation

Note: As this has been on the page for many years, consensus is required to remove. Without consensus to remove, it will be restored per historical consensus.

Proposed that the following be restored, as there is no doubt the Carnegie Foundation is a notable awarding entity:

In 1987, Raman was “honored among faculty nationwide for extraordinary leadership and service given to college or university campuses," particularly citing Raman's participation in "the Faculty Salute, a joint venture of the American Association for Higher Education, the Carnegie Foundation, and Change magazine," recognizing faculty "whose contributions extend beyond classroom teaching and scholarship."

Source is “People", Democrat and Chronicle, Rochester, New York, 22 Feb. 1987, Page 3B.

Support restoration

• Support as nominative. Hyperbolick (talk) 04:06, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

Oppose restoration

• They give a host of such trivial awards; LOL. ∯WBG^converse 18:59, 9 September 2019 (UTC)
  • Still a biographical fact this one was given. Hyperbolick (talk) 19:05, 9 September 2019 (UTC)

Propose inclusion of Raja Rao Award for Literature

Note: As this has been on the page for many years, consensus is required to remove. Without consensus to remove, it will be restored per historical consensus.

Propose to include the following:

In 2006, Raman was bestowed with the Raja Rao Award for Literature, given by the Samvad India Foundation to recognize those who have made outstanding contributions to the literature and culture of the South Asian Diaspora. The award, which has been described as "a prestigious honour", was presented to Raman by Dr. Karan Singh.

References

Support inclusion

• Support, as nom. Hyperbolick (talk) 18:31, 9 September 2019 (UTC)

Oppose inclusion

• That piece is typical promotion of a native Ottawa-ian; culture under attack says volumes. ∯WBG^converse 18:54, 9 September 2019 (UTC)
  • Have you anything to the effect that The Ottawa Citizen is not a reliable source? Hyperbolick (talk) 19:09, 9 September 2019 (UTC)
  • What about WP:NOTEWORTHY? The award does not need to be "notable" to be included in the text of the article. Hyperbolick (talk) 22:43, 10 September 2019 (UTC)

Support inclusion

Raman's accomplishments are impressive. Keep and restore. Jlrobertson (talk) 20:04, 14 September 2019 (UTC)

Agree completely. Hyperbolick (talk) 23:26, 14 September 2019 (UTC)

There is now consensus that this should be in the article (and no consensus for the removal.) Thank you participators. Hyperbolick (talk) 12:10, 16 September 2019 (UTC)

LOL ∯WBG^converse 14:50, 21 September 2019 (UTC)

This entire talk page is kind of a mess, so I'm just going to put my comments here. I think a closing admin will be able to sort it out:

1. For the Charlie Hebdo book, exclude per WBG's concern about the press being a predatory publisher, I agree with excluding that one, unless some more substantial sourcing of reviews specifically of Raman's work in the book turn up.
2. For the Carnegie Foundation award, exclude. I agree with WBG that it sounds overly trivial, and is not necessary, unless substantially better sourcing of its importance is provided.
3. For the Raja Rao Award, include, but in summary form. This actually seems to be a more serious and noteworthy award. Remember, per WP:NOTEWORTHY, "notability guidelines do not apply to contents of articles". Thus, the award does not need to be notable to be noteworthy. Without passing on the notability, it is clear from the way the award is discussed for recipients generally that reasonably reliable sources do consistently consider it to be a noteworthy achievement. See [1], [2], [3], [4]. However, it is not particularly noteworthy to say who presented the award, or what conference it was received at. I therefore propose as a compromise, include a summary line (not a separate section) at the end of the second paragraph under the "Career" header saying only: "In 2006, Raman received the Raja Rao Award, given for 'outstanding contributions to the literature and culture of the South Asian Diaspora'".

@Hyperbolick, Jlrobertson, Winged Blades of Godric, and RegentsPark: let's be reasonable here. Can we respectfully set aside all the other matters and agree on this compromise? CNMall41 (talk) 03:39, 23 September 2019 (UTC)

@CNMall41: My responses.

1. Have already agreed to exclude Charlie Hebdo book.
2. Continue to disagree as to Carnegie Foundation award. If sourced, why not mention? Could qualify claim of triviality in the article. But probably not worth spending more time arguing over.
3. As to Raja Rao Award for Literature, willing to agree to your proposed compromise, despite some reservations as to your limitations. Do think it is important where another notable person gave a speech lauding the recipient (more than just handing over a statue like in awards shows) as part of the proceedings, and where other notable persons participated in them. But, also aware that mention of the Raja Rao Award for Literature in the article for the past ten years did not necessarily mention these.

How to proceed from here? Hyperbolick (talk) 14:08, 23 September 2019 (UTC)

Conclusion

Summing up as of now:

Inclusion of Charlie Hebdo chapter	Restore Carnegie Award	Restore Raja Rao Award for Literature
Support Hyperbolick	Support Hyperbolick	Support Hyperbolick (prefer additional details about bestowal) Jlrobertson CNMall41 (limited to description of award)
Oppose WBG CNMall41	Oppose WBG CNMall41	Oppose WBG

Please correct if I've misread anybody's position. Hyperbolick (talk) 14:32, 23 September 2019 (UTC)

Closure requested at WP:ANRFC#Other types of closing requests. Article on Raja Rao Award for Literature was created/vetted through WP:AFC (by User:Alarichall) and WP:DYK (by User:Droodkin). Hyperbolick (talk) 13:47, 29 January 2020 (UTC)

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The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Look at later

Joanne Manaster, "A Visit to an India Full of Science and Engineering", Scientific American, February 26, 2013: "The eminent physicist and philosopher V.V. Raman indicates that science is a very important part of modern Indian culture."

Egil Asprem, Book Reviews, “Science and Religion: East and West,” Numen, Vol. 66, Iss. 2-3, page 38.

Excerpt of review of Raman's piece:

The first regular chapter in the book is a theoretical contribution by Varadaraja V. Raman, which breaks with most of the above-mentioned heuristics. In contrast to Fehige, Raman argues for a notion of “trans-cultural science” that embraces generalizations, willfully brackets (i.e., ignores) local contingencies, and defines both science and religion as essential human phenomena that can be traced back to time immemorial, connected to a sense of wonder and curiosity. In direct conflict with the careful historian of science, Raman distinguishes “ancient” from “modern” science in normative epistemological terms, showing little interest in historical categorizations or even chronology... Despite its many flaws, one commendable outcome of Raman’s argument is its disentanglement of “science” and scientific conduct from the clutches of theological biases that see it as intrinsically linked to “European Christendom.” Indeed, one senses in Raman an emancipatory drive, wanting to set science free from the contaminations of religion and culture.