Talk:Vangjel Meksi/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: Malleus Fatuorum 17:22, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

It'll take me a day or so to get through this article, but I'll add comments section by section until I'm done.

Article structure

• I think that the structure of the article needs a little bit of thought. Instead of those subsections within Life and work I'd suggest Early life, Philological activity, Translation of the New Testament, and Greek War of Independence as full-blown sections, and drop the over-arching Life and work.
  • Great suggestion and done.

Early life

• "He became the folk physician of Ali Pasha". This implies that Ali Pasha had only one folk physician. Is that right, given that he had four regular physicians?
  • We don't know how many folk physicians Ali Pasha used. We know from sources that later he had four fully trained physicians who had gone to four schools in different countries, but we don't know how many folk physicians he used. Changed into "he started to work as a folk physician.--Sulmues ^(talk) 00:54, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Philological activity and publishing of the New Testament

• "According to scholar Xhevat Lloshi in 1810 Ali Pasha started to have hard feelings toward Meksi for unknown reasons". This is ambiguous. It could mean that Lloshi made that comment in 1810, or that Pasha started to have these "hard feelings" in 1810. Can we do better than "hard feelings"? Perhaps something like "fell out of favour with?
  • Agreed. Changed [1] --Sulmues ^(talk) 17:41, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

• "... but is mentioned in many correspondences of Robert Pinkerton". What does "correspondences" mean here exactly? Letters?
  • Yep! Changed [2]--Sulmues ^(talk) 17:41, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
    • Were the letters written by Pinkerton, to Pinkerton, or both? Malleus Fatuorum 00:44, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
      • In that paragraph the letters to present Meksi's philological activities were written by Pinkerton to his superiors in order to present Meksi and show them that he was the right person to trust with the translation. Made a change to clarify that [3] and [4]. --Sulmues ^(talk) 01:00, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
• "Pinkerton, who in 1816 was the British and Foreign Bible Society's representative in Moscow ...". Already explained who Pinkerton was two paragraphs above.
  • At that time he was the rep in Moscow. Changed [5] and [6]--Sulmues ^(talk) 17:41, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Legacy

• "His endeavors suggested that a solution should be given to the many alphabet problems that Albanian had at that time". Are you using American or British English spelling? If British, then "endeavors" should be spelled "endeavours", and if American then the earlier "favour" should be spelled "favor".
  • Trying US English, so made change to "favor" [7].--Sulmues ^(talk) 23:39, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
    • If you're going with US English spelling then you probably ought to go as well for US date formatting, but in any event the date formats need to be consistent. Right now we have, for instance, "February 8, 1821" and "16 March 1824". Malleus Fatuorum 01:21, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
      • Changed to On Month XX, XXXX version See this please and let me know if it's Ok now.--Sulmues ^(talk) 01:30, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Consolidation

Given the article's restructuring, and to avoid confusion, I've started a separate section for outstanding issues based on the current structure.

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Lead

• The lead is a little too short to adequately summarise the article, but we can come back to that once the rest of it is sorted out.
  • Besides your own improving edits, I made these three additional ones to expand and to cover more broadly the main body of the article [8], [9], and [10]--Sulmues ^(talk) 11:52, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Early life

• "... degree in medicine from a University of Paris" A University of Paris? How many universities were there in Paris in the 19th century?
  • Fixed [11]. --Sulmues ^(talk) 03:58, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
• "His colleagues were Dr. Metaxa, (degree in medicine from the University of Paris), Saqeralliu (degree in medicine from the University of Vienna), and Loukas Vagias,[2][3] (brother of Thanasis Vagias, with a degree in medicine from Leipzig University)". As they all apparently had doctorates, why is it only Metaxa who is given the honorific of "Dr."? Malleus Fatuorum 04:08, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
  • Fixed [12] --Sulmues ^(talk) 04:12, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Translation of the New Testament

• There are several very short paragraphs that need to be merged, and too many consecutive paragraphs that begin "on such and such a date".
  • Addressed [13]--Sulmues ^(talk) 04:01, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

• "They told him that a translation of the New Testament into Albanian was indeed possible." That seems to come a little out of the blue. Had Pinkerton met with the Viennese Albanians to discuss the possibility of a translation into Albanian? Why would anyone have been in doubt that the New Testament could be translated into Albanian?
  • I try to be as close as possible to the sources when I write, and there isn't much there. The issue is very particular. The society had in its mission to translate the Bible to Eastern European countries and some protestant proselytism was linked with it. The doubt is natural because of two reasons: 1. The Greek Orthodox church at that time had a centenary and very well established lithurgy based on Koine, and the Albanians had no national church at that time. 2. Pinkerton was investigating whether a nation that was barely a nation in early 1800 (no Albania country existed since Skanderbeg times) and that had several alphabets to write its own language, potentially had people with sufficient scholarship to endeavor in the translation of a big book such as the Bible and get paid by the society for that. Pinkerton's and the society's concerns were legitimate. --Sulmues ^(talk) 15:24, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
• "Pinkerton also informs in his letter that Meksi was well regarded by the Albanian community". What letter?
  • There were many letters. See changes [14] and [15] --Sulmues ^(talk) 15:26, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

• "Early in 1821 Mr. Leeves of the BFBS visited Thessaloniki to supervise the translation." Why Thessaloniki? Last we were told, Meksi was in Istanbul.
  • He met with Pinkerton in Istanbul and Thessaloniki, although he worked in Serres. Pinkerton would leave appointments in places close to the sea where he would travel by ship, but this is OR on my side. There is nothing in the sources, but I would guess that the first time they met in Istanbul and the second time Pinkerton went the extramile to meet with Meksi closer to where he lived. --Sulmues ^(talk) 17:19, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

• "... in 1823 Leeves sent from Malta to Corfu the first copy of a printed New Testament in Albanian." Why Corfu?
  • I knew that the nightmare was upcoming: I was also very confused as to the quantity of places involved and the distance between them. Probably people at that time travelled much more than what we perhaps think now. The answer is that in Malta was the printing machine, and in Corfu the editors: basically Archimandrite Gjirokastriti and his helpers, whereas there wasn't a printing machine in Corfu (probably not the one that the society would have wanted anyways). --Sulmues ^(talk) 15:30, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
    • Then can we make it a bit clearer by saying something like "sent from Malta to the BFBS's office in Corfu"?
      • Sure changed. --Sulmues ^(talk) 17:06, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

• "The archimandrite had also recommended the printing in big letters, because the Albanians would have preferred it." This makes it sound like the Albanians were simple-minded or something. Why did Albanians have a preference for big letters?
  • Gotta ask the archimandrite. That's all we know from the sources. Mind you even the priests at that time didn't spend much time reading. Or perhaps they would never disclose their myopia and buy a pair of glasses which at the time were super-expensive? What wording would you suggest? --Sulmues ^(talk) 17:02, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
    • I've made an edit, see what you think. Malleus Fatuorum 21:04, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
      • I find it a very good one and thanks! --Sulmues ^(talk) 21:16, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

• "On March 16, 1824 Mr. Lowndes, the BFBS's secretary in Corfu, sent a letter to the society in which he mentioned that the sum paid to Meksi for his work was 6,000 piastras and that Archimandrite Grigor was paid 60 crowns." It would be nice here to be given an idea of how much 6,000 piatras would be equivalent to today, and whether 6,000 piatras is more or less than 60 crowns, which I know from using the {{inflation}} template is equivalent to about £1,670 today.

Philological activity

• "During a brief stay in Venice he began to develop his philological interests in the Albanian writing." This is ambiguous; "Albanian writing" could mean Albanian literature, or the way in which Albanian is written – its alphabet for instance. The "the" is adding to the confusion. Why not just "Albanian writing" rather than "the Albanian writing"?
  • It doesn't relate to literature, but to the alphabet (i.e. script), and grammar. Good catch and thanks, made change. --Sulmues ^(talk) 14:42, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

• "... may be either the first or the second grammar book on the Albanian language after the grammar of Jani Evstrat Vithkuqari". I'm not quite sure what this is saying. Is Meksi's grammar either the first Albanian grammar, or was Vithkuqari's the first and Meksi's perhaps the second?
  • We don't know if it was the first or the second. They both compete for being the first and we don't know which one was published earlier. Made a clarifying edit [16] --Sulmues ^(talk) 15:01, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

• "In this period Meksi also drafted an original alphabet for the Albanian language". What does "original" mean here? Was there no pre-existing alphabet? Was Albanian not written down before Meksi came up with his alphabet? Or did Meksi come up with a new alphabet?
  • There were several Albanian alphabets used in the 19th century: probably more than 10 (see Albanian_alphabet#List_of_alphabets_used_for_written_Albanian). Until the Congress of Manastir there was a mess. Meksi came up with his own. We know all this from the letters of Pinkerton, because nothing is left, unfortunately, neither the two translations, nor the grammar book, nor the manuscript of the translation of the New Testament. Clarified a little through this edit and this other one--Sulmues ^(talk) 15:01, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Greek War of Independence

• "Although he had serious pneumonia, he is said to have participated in the agreement, proposed by Theodoros Kolokotronis, to stop the fighting between the Albanians fighting on the Ottoman side and those on the Greek side during the siege." This is rather awkward. First of all, can pneumonia ever not be serious? More importantly though what does "participated in the agreement" mean? He helped to negotiate it, or he abided by it? "Fighting between the Albanians fighting" doesn't really work either.
  • I wouldn't take out serious pneumonia because that's what the source has, however I might add that he continued to work through the disease and even did participate in the agreement between the Albanians. In regards to the agreement among Albanians fighting on both sides: It is controversial to sustain an Arvanite origin of Kolokotronis in Wikipedia as of now: some Albanian sources I fear might not be accepted by the Greek editors, but that would explain lots of things. However what we may safely say is that the Albanians involved on the Greek side, including Meksi, convinced the Albanians fighting on the Turkish side to stop the fighting among Albanians. Made fixing change--Sulmues ^(talk) 21:31, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
    • I'm aware the the Balkans can be a powder keg, on wikipedia and in real life. I've tweaked it a bit to represent what I think you're saying. Malleus Fatuorum 21:54, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Legacy

• There seems to be a long gap of six years between Meksi competing his translation and its publication. Do we have any idea what caused that delay?
  • We do. Between 1921 to 1924 the St. Mathew Gospel only was prepared. After that it took three other years to get the whole New Testament published. It was mainly the indecision between the publishers of the society to decide what alphabet would be used. The letters go to very detailed description on the characters of the script, a mix of Greek and Latin and the article would be too technical. That's what would probably bring it to a FA status. Albanian had very little tradition in written literature: it was only northern Albanian authors who had published in latin letters such as Gjon Buzuku, and the arbereshe ones such as Jul Variboba: the authors in Greek alphabet were very few and publications in Albanian were almost inexistent. So the letters to be used was mainly a decision made by the British: Meksi and Gjirokastriti had pocketed the money, but the decision of the letters used was made in London. Of course there was great uncertainty for that, since the Albanians themselves had not reached any agreements as far as the Albanian alphabet was concerned. In addition at that time the written Albanian literature was almost inexistant: there were no Albanian schools and every piece of the Albanian culture was transmitted purely in an oral form. Do you want me to mention something on the delay? It would be OR though: Lloshi doesn't accuse any parties for the delay and he takes no positions: it's just me reading through the letters of the missionaries and their publishers. --Sulmues ^(talk) 17:11, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
• "The publication of a translation of the Testament from Greek was the first one in the Balkans". Not quite sure what this is saying, as by 1827 the Bible had obviously been translated into many different languages. Is this specifically talking about Balkan languages? If so, how is that defined? Would Greek not have counted as a Balkan language at that time?
  • It was the first publication in modern languages in the Balkans. Up to then the Bible existed only in Koine Greek and Old Slavonic. Made change--Sulmues ^(talk) 17:12, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

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I'm not concerned about any of the outstanding issues so far as meeting the GA criteria is concerned, although I think they would need to be addressed if the article was taken forwards to FAC. Therefore I'm closing this review and listing this article as a GA. Malleus Fatuorum 22:26, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.