Talk:Urtijëi/Archive

Section 1

Technically its German... its about 10% Ladin speaking so German is predominant. I'm gonna clarify that. btw I know that because I went there recently, and its a small town. However, if anyone feels that I am really wrong, feel free to change it. I'm just trying to help out with my experience there. I'll be working there all summer, so I'll be able to expand this significantly after that. Cprussin 23:11, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

One more comment: I think when they say their natively Ladin speaking it means they learned Ladin as a first language, not the first language. Many people in that area learn 2,3, even 4 first languages which they use on a daily basis. Ex: I knew someone who used German in the home, Italian in the village and with friends, and English at work. Cprussin 23:20, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

I don't have a non-Wikipedia source for the poll, but the numbers given in it:Ortisei add up to 100%, so they did say "the" first language. Of course practically everybody there is usually also a native speaker of German (I have been there and talked to everybody in German) or Italian, they just choose to classify themselves as speakers of Ladin. Kusma (討論) 23:25, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Actually I agree completely. When I went I only heard Italian and German--all of the Ladin must be like in-home or something. I'll email a person I know from the area. She may be able to help me. Cprussin 02:54, 29 March 2006 (UTC) By the way, I salute you for reading that in Italian... even though you are a language teacher, thats pretty intense.

I believe that Ladin is much more similar to Italian than German, being that it is a Romance language after all. There are many dialects in Trentino that are very similar to Ladin. German is an entirely different language than Italian/Ladin. Taalo 19:10, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Ortisei or Urtijëi

This discussion was moved here from Talk:Merano. Markussep 07:38, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Nice work Markussep; it is nice to keeps things a bit quantitative. I've said above I like the name Meran, but from my own personal experience the city is known in English by the Standard Italian name of Merano. I often visit Ortisei, and I'm willing to bet money that this is the name used most commonly in English as well, not Urtijëi. The locals use the spelling Ortisei with the outside world for the most part. It is exactly the same word actually, and no one is being repressed by putting the article at the Standard Italian name and including the translations in the article. Anyway, want to run your system on that too? :-) Icsunonove 18:20, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Be my guest ;-) I guess Ortisei or Urtijëi isn't used used often enough in English to give reliable results. Markussep 18:36, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

I'll try it with Google scholar I guess. Maybe Ortisei is more popular in my mind than in reality. Hmm, speak of the devil, I just heard them say Ortisei on Radio Cortina; of course not English. :)) Icsunonove 19:19, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Cortina 1 - Milan 0; hockey. LOL. Icsunonove 19:31, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Ok, here we go:

Google scholar (articles from the period 1957-2007, including "italy" to exclude people with surnames):

• Ortisei 60
• Urtijëi 2
• St. Ulrich 59

I think St. Ulrich picked up some bad results though. Anyway.

from Google USA:

• Urtijëi -wikipedia 22,000
• Ortisei -wikipedia 622,000

Seems that Ortisei sees roughly 30 times more usage in English. I expected it to be even more..heh. Bottom line, we are just creating confusion.. Anyway, enough for now. Icsunonove 19:29, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

I will comment that some of the Scholar.google.com results are false positives (Ortisei doesn't actually occur in the article); and many are post-office addresses, which we ignore by WP:NCGN (they testify to Italian official usage). One is in Italian, and one attests Ortisei-St. Ulrich. Leaving those aside, we are left with half a dozen attestations. On the other hand, the two testimonies for Urtijëi are in Italian and Ladin. Is this enough evidence to be decisive?

The google results are largely advertising (again, with postal addresses) and pages actually in Italian.

I don't really care whether we call it Ortisei or Urtijëi; as long as we have a good reason for whichever we do pick, and we don't call it, as it used to be, St. Ulrich-Ortisei-Urtijëi. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:22, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

I guess you can get some idea what is really more common when you can reference tourist websites like www.ortizei.com or www.sterzing.com, as to what the locals really use for marketing. They are also incidentally the more longterm names for the towns of Urticetum and Sterzengum, respectively. Where Vipiteno was definitely that Ettore dude playing around with the names. Probably his mentor came up with names like St. Ulrich and Wolkenstein. boh. They are all interesting actually and part of the history. www.altoadige-suedtirol.it. Wow, look at the nice scenery.. :-) Icsunonove 22:45, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

• I always like to get Tridentinus' input on these, so maybe he'll pop in. I'm still under the impression Ortisei is the more commonly used name publicly. It is also just plain easier for English users to read/pronounce: Orrrrr-Tea-Say. :} Icsunonove 22:49, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

A nice point, and the example should be added to WP:NCGN. But let's decide if we are moving this first. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:09, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

It stands as a fact that even the official tourist office website uses Ortisei in English - as indeed any commercial site with an English version, which may not be Gospel regarding info but surely worry about recognizability first and foremost. As we're dealing with a renowned resort, I think straying from what they think is most common English usage would be a disservice for users and local economy alike. On the other hand, redirects are there for a reason. I'd say Ortisei is too well-known not to consider the name common ENglish usage, albeit tentatively. Tridentinus 17:17, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, agreed. I've visited Ortisei many times, and this is the first I learned of the spelling in Ladin. It is definitely interesting and the name should be in the article. A redirect helps too, but I still think having the page at Urtijëi is just really confusing to the average reader. Plus then you start getting the links all over using this spelling as well. I really think for major cities and tourist downs in AA/ST we should use the most common English name, which is usually just the Standard Italian. For small obscure towns, yeah, sure, why not use the local language majority name.. Icsunonove 22:48, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

In analogy with the case of Meran(o), I would like to defend the local version of the name (i.e. Urtijëi): I do not believe that internet searches are informative at all. How sure can you be that those counts tell you anything about the question at hand, viz. whether there is an established English name for Urtijëi/Ortisei/St.Ulrich? That a place is mentioned in English does not make the particular form chosen an English name. People writing travel diaries cannot be expected to check facts as carefully as I expect from an encyclopedia (such as wikipedia). But let us even assume that all speakers of English do wish to use the same rules as encyclopedia, i.e. to use the local form if an established English one does not exist. She would have to be very well informed indeed to find out that the local form is Urtijëi. First, the local language is so "small" and unknown that short-time visitors unable to speak any of the three languages of the region might not even realise that there is a Ladin language. Second, for several decades, the local form only existed orally when locals spoke to each other, they would not have been visible anywhere. Third, this also means that travelers' guides written in this period can be expected to have used the Italian form, and they, I would concede, represent a more important source of information for foreigners than conversations with local people. Finally, official Italian maps still use the Italian versions of the names (either first or exclusively). In conclusion, a majority of "Ortisei" hits in an internet search can tell us one of two things: (1) There is an established English name for this place, and it is "Ortisei". (And I openly admit that I severely doubt the first part of the conclusion, i.e. that a place as small as Urtijëi/Ortisei/St.Ulrich has an established English name.) Or, (2), most people mentioning Urtijëi/Ortisei/St.Ulrich on the internet are not as well-informed as wikipedia ought to be. Kind regards, 129.241.87.222 17:08, 24 May 2007 (UTC) (Hanno)

I would be happy and interested to see a WP:RM request here; but let me answer Hanno thus: We don't assume that people with travel diaries are trying to do what we do; but we are trying to communicate with English speakers. If the only English writers who mention this small town are writers of diaries, we will take them as English usage. For much more on this, see WP:NCGN. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:15, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is archived. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

Moved. Our naming conventions are clear that it is the most commonly-used English name that takes precedence. It has been convincingly demonstrated that Ortisei is the most commonly-used English name.--Aervanath lives in the Orphanage 05:27, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

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Urtijëi → Ortisei — For the same reason as Val Gardena, Ortisei is the typical name used in English for this little town in North-East Italy. In fact, most local tourist guides provided by this city use Ortisei. Likewise, there exists a large order of magnitude difference in Google hits in English. — Icsunonove (talk) 22:33, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.

• Support, as requestor. Google hits in English: 728,000 for Ortisei versus 11,400 for Urtijëi. Following the same WP:COMMONNAME argument made by Keith D on the Val Gardena page. Note also the English home page of Val Gardena. I am also aware of the previously agreed-to formula for communes in this bi(tri)-lingual province, but that formula also stated that English-usage trumps all. Icsunonove (talk) 22:36, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
• Support as Ortisei is clearly the most common name of the town, as also its inhabitants use that name. --Checco (talk) 22:52, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
• Support per google and naming conventions (and what about Sëlva -> Selva and Santa Crestina Gherdëina -> Santa Cristina Valgardena?).--Supparluca 09:29, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
• Oppose until better evidence than (unexamined) raw Google is found. For one thing, there are of course three local names, the third being St. Ulrich; of the first four hits on [Icsunonove's search for Ortisei at least three also call the hamlet St. Ulrich - and one is in Italian. GIGO. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:41, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

  Look at it this way, is there any better evidience that Urtijëi is common English usage? Commercially this town is referred to as Ortisei, I've been there many times. By no means are we trying to get rid of any names, I've been at the forefront of having all TN and BZ articles retain as many names, including historical ones. Icsunonove (talk) 02:33, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

  We don't use Urtijëi because it's common English usage; we use Urtijëi on the grounds that there isn't any widely accepted English name, since neither Ortisei or St. Ulrich qualify; they are both local official names, our normal fallback. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:14, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

  Well, I'm arguing that for this town famous for wood carvings in Val Gardena, Ortisei is indeed the by far common usage in English. It is what the local inhabitants call the town, but in an alternate spelling, which happens to be more difficult to interpet in English. Most towns in Trentino also use the Standard Italian in marketing. They don't call Fondo, Fond in general English literature for tourists. Icsunonove (talk) 19:25, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose The majority of the local population call it Urtijëi or St. Ulrich. It is, in my opinion, politically correct to call it that way otherwise Sri Lanka would still be Ceylon and Zaire would be called Congo. We are tired of seeing that people always try to take away something from us. To tell you the truth the fashists forced us to use the names Urtijëi, Gherdeina, St. Ulrich , Gröden, the fashists even wanted us to change our family name Moroder into Mureda. Are you aware of these historical facts? are you trying to do the same? If English imperialism is not ruling any more, should Roman imperialism still survive?--Moroderen (talk) 22:13, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

  Oh dear. Morodoren, can you please be relaxed and civil with regard to these discussions? Why do you have to make accusations of fascism and speak in such a extremist fashion? No one is trying to take anything from you, and I must say your reaction seems very paranoid. Both Ortisei and Urtijëi are in fact the same word, with a slight variation in spelling between Standard Italian and Ladin. I don't go crazy because we call Trento in English instead of Trent. It just happens to be that we use Ortisei in English, as does the vast majority of tourism documents that directly from Ortisei. I have to admit I'm completely confused by what the fascists are forcing you to do. Use Ortisei or use Urtijëi? :-) Anyway, I will ask you to look at this discussion purely in respect of applying English Wikipedia, not a century-old political fight. We are trying to discuss using proper English usage, not simply coming here and throwing in personal desires. Icsunonove (talk) 02:50, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

  Moroderden ist correct: we mostly use Urtijëi or St. Ulrich. Ortisei is often used commercially (on tourism docs), as on many maps (e.g. the navi in your car) you're likely to find the italian names, as they are the only ones officially recognized due to historic reasons. As long as map-makers do not adapt (Michelin-Atlas, Tele-Atlas, Navteq...) we are forced to favour those italian names on brochures, websites and the like so people can find us. Wikipedia should not play this game. --Sajoch (talk) 16:35, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose. Urtijëi is an official name used by the majority of the local population. -- PhJ (talk) 21:07, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Discussion

Any additional comments:

• And as I promised before, before this move request discussion has the least bit chance of spiraling out of control into politics, I'll ask Lar to keep an eye on things. We are simply trying to use what is common English usage, this is not about fascism, forced name changes 100 years ago, or English imperialism. o_O Icsunonove (talk) 02:54, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

• I am adding more detailed Google search results as requested by Sep. Here is using Google Scholar with an English only search. 135 hits for Ortisei; 6 hits for Urtijëi. St. Ulrich is obviously more difficult to search on. Icsunonove (talk) 04:13, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

• Here is a search using Google with English preferences set in two locations. I first do a search for Ortisei -wiki -Ulrich -Urtijëi. I receive 67,900 English pages for Ortisei. Then I did Urtijëi -wiki -Ulrich -Ortisei. I receive 1,220 English pages for Urtijëi. If anyone can add more sophisticated searches, please do. Icsunonove (talk) 04:19, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
  • But is Ortisei more common than St. Ulrich? Otherwise we will go around in circles with another move request as soon as this one is closed. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:16, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
    • The majority Ladin speakers of the city say Ortisei/Urtijëi (same word, pronounced almost identical), not St. Ulrich. Icsunonove (talk) 19:25, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
      • Very well: But is Ortisei more common than St. Ulrich in English? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:33, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
        • Yes, for the name of this town, I believe Ortisei is more common usage in English. As far which term is in general more common usage, one can only guess -- but I'd assume the Saint. Icsunonove (talk) 00:21, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

From Wikipedia:Naming conflict:

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A number of methods can be used to identify which of a pair (or more) conflicting names is the most prevalent in English.

• The Google test. Using Google's advanced search option, search for each conflicting name and confine the results to pages written in English; also exclude the word "Wikipedia" (as we want to see what other people are using, not our own usage). Note which is the most commonly used term.
• International organisations. Search for the conflicting names on the websites of organisations such as the United Nations, NATO, OSCE, IMF, etc.
• Major English-language media outlets. Use Google News and, where possible, the archives of major outlets such as BBC News and CNN to identify common usages. Some media organisations have established style guides covering naming issues, which can provide useful guidance (e.g. The Guardian's style guide says use Ukraine, not the Ukraine).
• Reference works. Check other encyclopedias. If there is general agreement on the use of a name (as there often will be), that is usually a good sign of the name being the preferred term in English.
• Geographic name servers. Check geographic name servers such as the NGIA GNS server at http://gnswww.nga.mil/geonames/GNS/index.jsp .
• Scientific nomenclature. Check usage by international bodies like CIPM, IUPAP, IUPAC, and other scientific bodies concerned with nomenclature; consider also the national standards agencies NIST and NPL. Consult style guides of scientific journals.

---

Some data:

• Ortisei without St. Ulrich: 42,900 hits; St. Ulrich without Ortisei: 19,300 hits.
• I was able to find at least one valid result for Ortisei with Google news (this), none for St. Ulrich.
• The NGIA GNS server finds Ortisei but not St. Ulrich.
• Unfortunately St. Ulrich is a common name.--Supparluca 21:24, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

• More and more English usage One, Two, Three (Carl Moroder). The brand of Made in Ortisei is famous for wood making, and it is hilarious we are trying to go against that. We obviously emphasise the Ladin spelling of the same name in the body of the article. Icsunonove (talk) 19:28, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

To tell you the truth: it resulted from a recent research published on Ladinia, the scientifich publication of the "Istitut Ladin Micura de Ru" that since a couple of years the majority of people in Urtijei speak German, which I regret a lot, but this is the fact. Therfor the majority call it St. Ulrich. I still try to point to the historical facts and who wants to listen, listens and who wants to understand will understand. --Moroderen (talk) 21:31, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

If that is really the case, that is indeed very sad that Ladin is being taken over by German, but not too surprising really. In the Val di Non there are also periods of Nones/Ladino resurging and then fading. See my point that the introduction of German into BZ was just as catastrophic to the Ladin of Trentino-Alto Adige, maybe more-so than Standard Italian in Trentino -- because at least Standard Italian and Ladin are cousins. Anyway, getting off subject. :] Icsunonove (talk) 23:57, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Frazioni

Are you sure Ortisei doesn't have frazioni? it.wiki says San Giacomo, fr.wiki nothing, es.wiki nothing, de.wiki St. Ulrich and St. Jakob, and enit.it says SAN GIACOMO / SANKT JAKOB.--Supparluca 12:42, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

I was not sure and so I looked it up in the provincial Handbook yesterday (Südtirol Handbuch; Januar 2007; publisher: Presseamt (Press office) of the province - sorry, but I have only the German edition here); there it says on page 214:

St. Ulrich/Urtijei: 24,25 qkm. Marktgemeinde.

E2006: 4569; VZ2001: 12,13% D, 5,55% I, 82,32% L;

GW2005: SVP 1408 (50,34%), Lista Urtijej 878 (31,39%), Ladins 511 (18,27%); Sitze: SVP 10, Lista Urtijej 6, Ladins 4; BM: Ewald Moroder (SVP).

SdG: 39046 St.Ulrich, Romstraße 2, Tel. 0471796121, Telefax 0471797700, E-Mail: info (at) gemeinde.stulrich.bz.it; Gms: Dr. Johann Ulrich Steiner.

if a commune has a frazione it would like this:

Brenner: 114,30 qkm. Marktgemeinde. Fr: Brennerbad, Gossensaß, Pflersch, Pontigl. (Fr: = frazioni)

E2006: 2049, VZ2001: 79,39% D, 20,29% I, 0,31% L; ... ...

As the Handbook is the updated every year I am sure that St. Ulrich/Ortisei/Urtijei does not have a frazione. I suspect that there might be more commnues were frazioni are missing or have been added in error. --noclador (talk) 13:03, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

Couldn't it be an error of the Handbook? An online source would be helpful.--Supparluca 14:17, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

The handbook wrong??? I don't think so: it is sent every year to all comuni and it is updated every year, so errors should be corrected by now (it is the 26th edition); on the homepage of the comune of Ortisei they do not mention a frazione, but take note of St. Jacob as famoso paesino di montagna. I would stick with the handbook. --noclador (talk) 15:41, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

OK. I meant a typographical error, not an error of ignorance.--Supparluca 08:32, 9 February 2009 (UTC)