Talk:Urðarbrunnr

Eilífr Goðrúnarson

"Urðarbrunnr is mentioned a second time in section 52 of Skáldskaparmál, this time in associated with Christ. The section states that early skalds once referred to Christ in relation to Urðarbrunnr and Rome, and quotes the late 10th century skald Eilífr Goðrúnarson, who states that "thus the powerful king of Rome increased his realm with lands of heath-land divinites [giants; i.e. heathen lands]" and that Christ is said to have his throne south of Urðarbrunnr."

Maybe we should quote the whole verse rather than paraphrasing half of it. The reader might not immediately understand that Christ is the powerful king of Rome. It's also worth keeping in mind that we only have Snorri's word for that identification (not that I know of any alternative theory). Also, could you make sure the quote is verbatim? My 2004 reprint of Faulkes has "Thus has the" and "divinities".

Also, I'm not sure where Faulkes is going in his translation. Presumably he's translating 'setbergs' as 'of heath-land', which is weird. That also leaves him translating 'sitja' ("to sit") as "to have his throne". Maybe that's what the poet meant but that's certainly not the only possibility. Haukur (talk) 08:23, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Interesting points, and maybe we ought to look at some other English translations for Skáldskaparmál. As I understand, there are very few translations of Skáldskaparmál in English (in fact, isn't Brodeur's 1916 translation our only other option?). The reason I've paraphrased the quote is because Faulkes refers to Urðarbrunnr as the "Well of Weird" (obviously problematic) throughout his translation. If you don't have the Faulkes translation, here is the full text:

Early poets have referred to Christ in terms of the well of Weird and Rome, as for instance Eilif Gudrunarson: "Thus has the powerful king of Rome increased his realm with lands of heath-land divinities [giants; i.e. heathen lands]. He is said to have his throne south at Weird's well."

Brodeur has:

So has Rome's Mighty Ruler

In the Rocky Realms confirmèd

His power; they say He sitteth

South, at the Well of Urdr.[1]

Know of any other English translations of Skáldskaparmál? :bloodofox: (talk) 17:35, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

No, unfortunately I think that's all there is. When I get a chance I'll check Faulkes' edition of Skáldskaparmál (edition, as opposed to translation) and see if he has any exegesis on that part. Haukur (talk) 17:04, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Excellent, hopefully there will be something of interest there. :bloodofox: (talk) 20:14, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Faulkes' exegesis:

Like the previous verse, evidently part of a Christian poem by a poet known otherwise for his heathen verse. See note to verses 73-91. The context is unknown; the poem may have been addressed to Christ. Eilífr's verse is only known from SnE. In line 2, the form sunnr would give a better hending. Frank (1978, 118-19; see references there) takes setbergs as adverbial gen. 'on a table-mountain' with sitja; banda löndum then becomes 'over (with) lands where the (heathen) gods are worshipped'. It is difficult to be sure what the poet had in mind by his reference to suðr at Urðar brunni. It may mean at Rome, or at the centre of the world (i. e. Jerusalem?). If this extract really is from a Christian poem, the phrase presumably implies that Christ has taken over the reponsibility [sic] for fate (or providence) from the heathen norns. Cf. Gylf. chs 15-16, esp. p. 17/30-31: '... Urðar brunnr. Þar eigu guðin dómstað sinn.' (Faulkes, Anothony (ed.) (1998). Edda : Skáldskaparmál : 1. Introduction, Text and Notes. Viking Society for Northern Research, University College London. ISBN 0903521334 p. 201)

I imagine you would find this book useful. After now having gone through the trouble of getting it from the library and typing in the above I suddenly remembered that it's actually available for download in a pdf version free of charge. Check it out! [2] Haukur (talk) 11:15, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

I think there's some information in this explanation that we should use in the "theories" section below about the excerpt, specifically about how the skald is otherwise recorded as a heathen, and about how the poem may implicate that Christ takes over control of fate from the norns. It's not something that is pointed out in any of my sources, and seems to strengthen the notion that the well may have had some sort of direct association with fate and not necessarily a relation solely derived from the norn name. Also, yes, the link will be useful, I'll definitely sort through the articles there later. Thanks for putting the extra effort in! :bloodofox: (talk) 18:13, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes, there's a lot of great stuff at the Viking Society page. Big kudos to them for making their publications available like that.

As for Eilífr - it's almost always assumed that the work which the half-stanza in question is excerpted from was a Christian poem and it's often assumed that it was a Kristsdrápa, a praise poem to Christ. This is then regarded as nicely symmetric and amusing since the same poet wrote a Þórsdrápa. But it's worth keeping in mind that we have no idea what the original context of these lines was. All we know is the short introduction Snorri gives in Skáldskaparmál and then the fact that Eilífr composed Þórsdrápa and that he was a poet of Jarl Hákon. It's entirely possible that Eilífr was never converted and one could even imagine that the half-stanza in question was composed for Jarl Hákon, like the rest of Eilífr's oeuvre seems to be. Let's follow Faulkes' suggestion and take the lines to mean something like: "The Christian religion has expanded so greatly that people are saying that Christ must have control of fate." Isn't it possible that the rest of the stanza was a but...? Perhaps reminding the attenders that Lord Hákon had gained impressive victories against the Christians? This is of course complete speculation and original research but I like Faulkes' commentary in that he doesn't make any unqualified statement that the lines were from a Christian poem. Haukur (talk) 19:02, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

I think you bring up some good points here and I'm inclined to agree. I believe the current entry is pretty much along the lines of this - if you feel that it should be altered, feel free. It's really a shame we don't have more of Snorri's sources, especially in situations like this. There's obviously some censorship going on in these texts, so it would indeed be very interesting to see what the rest of that poem looked like. :bloodofox: (talk) 09:40, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

I don't think Snorri was squeamish about these things - he even quotes prayers to Thor and we'd have much less material to work with if it weren't for him. But of course the things he was most interested in or found practical to quote for illustrative purposes aren't always the same things we would have been most interested in. Anyway, I think you've made a good article here. Haukur (talk) 10:03, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Of course, it goes without saying that anyone interested in this subject matter owes a great debt to Snorri (or whoever was responsible for the various sections of the Prose Edda) and that the fact that we have any of this at all is pretty enigmatic in comparison to the scant material for all the rest of Germanic Europe. My comments about "censorship" in this case extend to pre-Christian elements that might not have made it into text - Freyr's phallus, for example, is notably absent. Things are often pretty "clean" in the texts, and I would assume anything that outright critical of Christianity or Christians would get the same treatment. As always, your input is appreciated and it's a pleasure to collaborate with you here. :bloodofox: (talk) 19:18, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

True - sexual material and material explicitly critical of Christianity would probably have been the dodgiest stuff. As for the Prose Edda I know that skepticism is somewhat in vogue but I personally think that the evidence for Snorri's authorship of the work more or less as we know it is very convincing. Haukur (talk) 23:25, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

GA-nom and image

Artist? Date? Publication?

I think this is article is pretty close to being WP:GA level. One thing that I'd like to put up here is an image. I was considering this image to the right, but it's really low resolution and there's basically no information about it. If we can figure out what the work appears in, we might be able to pull it out of Google Books at a higher resolution. :bloodofox: (talk) 19:27, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

The image is from Fredrik Sander's 1893 Swedish edition of the Poetic Edda, reprinted with Erik Brate's 1913 translation which in turn is republished by Project Runeberg. You can see it in context here: http://runeberg.org/eddan/se-01.html I haven't been able to determine the artist but I almost certainly could, given enough time at the library. Haukur (talk) 23:14, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

I will add the image and the information you've provided in the caption, which will probably be good enough for a GA review. I looked around Google Books in an attempt to see if I could pull it up (and thus produce a higher resolution version of the image), but no luck. If you know a means of getting a hold of this book and possibly getting some decent to high-resolution scans of the images, it would probably enrich every article that these illustrations appear on. :bloodofox: (talk) 02:36, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Well, I can get Sander's Edda at the National Library - but only for reading there, I couldn't take it home. I can get Brate's Edda for taking home. I'll check the image quality in the printed versions to see if rescanning the lot would be worthwhile. I'll also see if the artists are credited. Haukur (talk) 08:28, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Is the Bates version on par print-wise with the Sanders version? The small images that Runeberg supplies don't seem to say much in terms of quality.. :bloodofox: (talk) 03:13, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

(deindent) You mean Brate's version? As I said below the one I found didn't have these pictures. But there must be one that does (perhaps the one you saw in the museum). This article says:[3]

"Sander, Fredrik, Såmund den vises Edda. Skaldeverk af fornnordiska myt- och hjältesånger om de gotiska eller germanska folkens gamla gudatro, sagominnen och vandringar. Med bilder af nordiska konstnärer. Sth 1893. Illustrations reprinted with Erik Brate’s translation n.d.&pl. (Sth 1978): 20, 42-47."

But I can't find anything else about a 1978 reprint of Brate/Sander. Haukur (talk) 06:51, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

The plot thickens, look at this: [4] This looks a lot like Brate's translation with Sander's images. Have you got 148 SEK lying around? Haukur (talk) 06:56, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Not a bad looking cover there. This book and a scanner could well be the solution to our problems. If someone doesn't grab it before I do, I wouldn't mind getting a hold of it. Isn't there some other book that is in print right now that contains a large collection of plates, practically all of which should be in the public domain right now? I remember seeing it somewhere not long ago. By the way, the book I saw in the museum was very similar (if not the same) as Kuhn's Greek Gods In Northern Costumes (I should have been more clear about that). :bloodofox: (talk) 23:02, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Sander's Edda

Okay, I hit the books and here's what I came up with: Brate's Edda does not actually seem to have reprinted those images, the edition I could find didn't have any images at all. A pity. But I did get to look at Sander's Edda and wow... That book is gorgeous. The image we're talking about is on page 7 - actually it covers the entire page 7. It would certainly be possible to get a much better scan than the one we have. Unfortunately I can't take the book home with me to scan.

The book contains information on the artists who made the pictures but unfortunately it just lists them all in one pile, it doesn't say who made what, so there's quite a bit of sleuthing necessary to find out. Here's the list of artists from the book with my attempts to identify them.

• Andrén, A. V. (Anders Victor Andrén aka Vicke Andrén, 1856-1930)
• Arsenius, J. G. (Johan Georg Arsenius, 1818-1903)
• Arsenius, C. G. (Karl Georg Arsenius, 1855-1908)
• Cederström, G. O.
• Hellqvist, C. G.
• Holm, P. D. (Per Daniel Holm, 1835-1903)
• Johansson, C. (possibly Carl August Johansson, 1863-1944)
• Jungstedt, A.
• Kindborg, J. (Johan Kindborg, 1861-1907)
• Kronberg, J.
• Kulle, A. H.
• Larson, C. (single s a typo in the book?)
• Liljefors, Br.
• Malmström, J. A.
• Nyström-Stoopendaal, Jenny
• Pauli, G.
• Rosen, G. J. O. von
• Saltza, C. F. von (1858-1905)
• Sörling, O. (Olof Sörling, 1852-1927)
• Tirén, J.
• Winge, M. E.
• Zorn, A. L.

Listed separately:

• Arbo, P. N.
• N. J. O:son Blommér

Woodcuts by:

• Falander, Ida (1842-1927)
• Forssell, G. (Gunnar Forssell, 1859-1903)
• Hansen, L. B. (beats me)
• Meyer, W.
• Pettersson, Justus (aka Justus Peterson, 1860-1889)

The woodcut of the Nornir is clearly marked "W. Meyer" so we have the xylographer but I don't know who made the original drawing. There are some squiggles there that might be the artist's signature but it'd require a careful study to find out.

Also worth mentioning: There are some images in the book that are not at Project Runeberg. Haukur (talk) 10:42, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Here's an article worth reading: [5] It describes a few of the images in Sander's Edda. Haukur (talk) 11:17, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

It's unfortunate that there's no means of getting scans of that book. It would be an achievement if we could gather as many decent resolution scans of this sort as we can. I think I remember seeing something very similar for sale to the work you've linked at the Moesgård Museum (with images), though I didn't pick it up. Next time I am there, I will take a closer look. :bloodofox: (talk) 02:54, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Looks like the full name is Carl Fredrik von Saltza. Haukur (talk) 06:32, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Project continues at User:Haukurth/Sander's Edda. Haukur (talk) 09:43, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Great work, Haukur! Re scanning: can you photograph the book? Even with a ultra-compact digital camera, it is possible to get decent reprophotos of book pages. Or maybe you could talk the library into doing a full-scale digitisation project... ;-) Lupo 11:09, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes I can - and I have! :) See Image:Groa och Heid.JPG and Image:Mannus söner.jpg for the first two results of that. In both cases I uploaded the original photo as well so someone more proficient in image processing can try their hand if they want to. Haukur (talk) 11:19, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Great! BTW, Carl Frederik von Saltza (AKA Carl Frederick" or "Charles Frederick") lived 1858 - 1905.[6][7] It appears he moved to the U.S. in 1891.[8] Lupo 15:31, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Interesting, I hadn't seen the 'Charles' spelling before. See Carl Fredrik von Saltza for what information Bloodofox and I have managed to scrounge. Haukur (talk) 15:34, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Urðarbrunnr/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Hi! I will be doing the GA review of this article, and I should have the full review up within a few hours. Dana boomer (talk) 18:54, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

GA review (see here for criteria)

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose): b (MoS):

   • In the lead, you say "An amount of scholarly theory". "An amount" is weasel-y. Perhaps just "Scholarly theory"?
   • In the "Poetic Edda" section, what does Stanza 111 say about it?

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):

3. It is broad in its coverage.

   a (major aspects): b (focused):

   • Is there nothing that has resulted from this? It has had no influence on anything that remains today?

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

5. It is stable.

   No edit wars etc.:

6. It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.

   a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):

7. Overall:

   Pass/Fail:

Nice work! I am putting the article on hold to allow you time to address the few minor concerns I have raised above. If you have any questions, you can ask them here on the review page or on my talk page. Dana boomer (talk) 19:11, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Hello and thanks! I've delayed my response to look for the answers to your points. It seems that this subject has had little influence out there that I can find outside of a few paintings with more depict the Norn trio. So, at the moment, I don't think it's enough to mention or warrant the very brief section it would result in - the painting we have up right now is one of the few depictions of it. Other than that, I am not seeing much in terms of pop culture references. If and when I find some notable references, I'll gladly compile and add them. I suppose a well/spring/lake is not the easiest thing to name things after in modern popular culture, even in Scandinavia.

The stanza you've mentioned (Hávamál, 111) is a keen observation on your part and I appreciate your attention to detail. I'm currently trying to figure out how best to present this stanza. I'm admittedly confused by it - the poem is the result of the stitching together of various poems, and this is where two sections come together, and so the confusion. :bloodofox: (talk) 04:34, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

If you feel that there's not enough to warrant a "popular culture" section, then I will bow to your expertise :) And, if you're currently working on adding the information on the new stanza, then that's great. I am passing the article to GA status now, even though you may be adding some things, because it meets the criteria of GA status. Dana boomer (talk) 12:11, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Great and thanks! I've included what I think is the best way to approach that stanza for now with the assistance of haukurth (talk · contribs). :bloodofox: (talk) 17:31, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Modern influence

After some brief googling I have only found a few occurences of the concept of Urðarbrunnr in modern culture. Some (or most) of them are not particularly notable compared to the common scale. Wyrd's Well Press, publisher of books on northern spirituality and heathenism, is perhaps the most notable one. The label Well of Urd was a sidelabel of the label Hammerheart and released a number of Hagalaz' Runedance's albums, and some of Hekate's. Both labels are now defunct and active as Karmageddon Media. The folk metal band named Boarsnout was formerly called both Urðarbrunnr and Well of Wyrd. One of Varg Vikernes' lyrics quotes J. S. Welhaven, where he speaks of the well, but I have not yet managed to find the ultimate source of this Welhaven quote, for all I know Vikernes could have made it up. Those artists don't reference their lyrics, for sure. Sagaspelet Lofotr 2008 hosted the saga play Ved Urdarbrunn (By the Urdarbrunn) by Nina E. Wester.

Surely bloodofox and others might have found these references already, but I thought I would leave a comment anyways. –Holt T•C 01:08, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Good work as always, Holt. As you know, there are a number of philosophical takes on the notion of wyrd/Urðr out there as well, but their notability is also questionable. :bloodofox: (talk) 03:42, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Falkenstein has recently released an album called Urdarbrunnen. It is not too bad either! –Holt T•C 21:52, 26 October 2008 (UTC)