Talk:Upstate New York/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Definition

"There is no in whether or not a place is "upstate", as well as elevation and being away from sea level (hence the prefix "up", meaning both to the north and having a greater altitude). "

What? It would appear that there are some words missing from this sentence. It would be great if this could be fixed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.51.184.48 (talk) 13:37, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

North of the Erie Canal

Since the Erie canal is a major geographical landmark which runs horizontally across New York state, it would be better to denote anything above it as upstate. That is, anything above Buffalo to anything above Syracuse. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.138.161.14 (talk) 18:27, 16 March 2017 (UTC)

What a piece of crap.

This article has a lot of potential, but it's basically a disputed, unsourced cesspool of WikiLinks and "it may be this, but it's probably that" statements.

When I finish reviewing a GA nomination I'm going to rip this article to shreds and turn it into something whimsical and informative without all of the filler and contradictory statements that, while needed, aren't presented the way they should be. Stay tuned. Buffaboy ^talk 04:48, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

If you take that approach, you're liable to get reverted or start disputes. It's not at all the job of Wikipedia articles to be "whimsical". Please see WP:TONE and WP:RELEVANCE.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  00:40, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

"Whimiscal" wasn't a good word to use. Slow, steady and constructive edits will help the article. It does have some good content, but the structure isn't great. Buffaboy ^talk 05:16, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

RfC: How should this article "define" Upstate New York?

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

I would like to work on this article, making it similar to the upper 2/3s of Northern California. Since Upstate New York is an often disputed term, how should it be defined with respect to WP:NPOV? Buffaboy ^talk 05:00, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

Whatever reliable sources say is the best option. Grognard Extraordinaire Chess (talk) Ping when replying 00:12, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

From 1992 Trace substances in environmental health, vol. 25, p.278: "Upstate New York includes all counties and townships outside of New York City." That was ever my own understanding, even though I lived on Long Island for two years and never considered it part of "Upstate". "Upstate" meant all of "continental" New York. But I am a sample of one. KDS4444^Talk 05:25, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

Also found this: "Upstate New York includes all of New York State with the exception of the New York Metropolitan area, consisting of New York City, Long Island, and Rockland, and Westchester counties." So I guess I was right after all in my sentiment. KDS4444^Talk 05:29, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

It's probable that exact definitions conflict; the term probably means subtly different things in different regulatory (and other) contexts. This is a common problem in articles on such regions. The usual approach, I think, is to go in the lead with the general definition used in the preponderance of reliable sources (without getting bogged down in nit-picks), then explain in the body of the article what the definitional divergences are in particular contexts.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  00:39, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

You aren't going to see a better answer than that one right there. KDS4444^Talk 07:44, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

That seems to be a good approach. Thanks for the input everyone. Buffaboy ^talk 02:59, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

• It's kind of a subjective term. When you need to define subjective terms, sometimes it's best to do a survey of what the sources say, summarize them, and then report it in the lead. This is what I did in cult film, which is about a highly disputed term, both in fan and scholarly discussions. For the record, "anything outside NYC" is really only applicable to residents of NYC. Orange, Sullivan, and Dutchess counties really don't consider themselves to be upstate, and they would say that it starts further up toward Syracuse or Albany. This is discussed in The New York Times. I'm sure you could pull dozens of articles from The New York Times, The New Yorker, New York, The New York Observer, and The Village Voice just to start. After that, hit up the Hudson Valley newspapers (The Poughkeepsie Journal and Times Herald-Record, for example), and then the Southern Tier, Capital District, and further north. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 01:00, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Upstate New York

The thruway runs from east to west, if you live north of the thruway you are in Upstate New York. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.123.143.102 (talk) 16:10, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

I think of the Shawangunks ridge (and the valley behind it, e.g. Roundout, Bashakill, etc; i.e. approximately a line drawn from Port Jervis thru Wurtsboro and Ellenville to Kingston/Rhinebeck, or rather just to the southeast of these communities) as the boundary between upstate and downstate. The area south and east of that diagonal is "downstate" as I see it. Everything north and west of that line is "upstate", with Kingston and that valley being a border region. This corresponds with a break in the continuity of population distribution, as a result of the Shawangunks (See http://www.dec.ny.gov/images/air_images/24hrpm25fig5.jpg) and, to a great extent, with who commutes to work in and around NYC. 50.149.22.198 (talk) 13:48, 16 October 2015 (UTC)

Demographics

There should be a way to get a population number and even more in depth data straight from county data on Wikipedia or elsewhere without manually working the numbers one by one. B137 (talk) 00:54, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

Namely I questioned that the population of Upstate went through steady decline for an extended period ("Since the late 20th century, with the decline of manufacturing and its jobs, the area has generally suffered a net population loss."). Much of the area is and always has been very sparsely populated. It's easy to ignore all that and only focus on anyplace that's anyplace, that being Buf, Roc, Syr, Albany and maybe binghamton. While these have declined sadly over the latter half of the 20th century, the areas around them haven't necessarily. For example, Monroe County, New York only logged one tiny loss for 1980 of 1.4% but quickly gained it back and is unequivocally higher than ever. Not so with Erie County, New York (Buffalo, New York) and Onondaga County, New York (Syracuse). But bring in many of the podunk counties, some of which don't even have incorporated cities, and the population has gone up by almost two million, an increase of more than 35%. If you include most of the next few counties as part of "downstate", that accounts for an increase of a few hundred thousand, not nearly enough to justify saying upstate had a "net population loss trend [over an extended period]", though a few counties did lose some. Not to discredit the Rust Belt for not being awful, the economy is rather stagnant (New York high-speed rail mentions this) outside of NYC. Little things come and go but nothing major. B137 (talk) 00:14, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

• New York City
• New York
• Rockland
• Westchester
• Nassau
• Suffolk

• upstate 1950: 14830192 - 276129 - 672765 - 625816 - 89276 - 7891957 = 5,274,249

• upstate 2010: 19378102 - 8175133 - 311687 - 949113 - 1339532 - 1493350 = 7,109,287

Historical population

Census	Pop.	Note	%±
1790	340,120		—
1800	589,051		73.2%
1810	959,049		62.8%
1820	1,372,812		43.1%
1830	1,918,608		39.8%
1840	2,428,921		26.6%
1850	3,097,394		27.5%
1860	3,880,735		25.3%
1870	4,382,759		12.9%
1880	5,082,871		16.0%
1890	6,003,174		18.1%
1900	7,268,894		21.1%
1910	9,113,614		25.4%
1920	10,385,227		14.0%
1930	12,588,066		21.2%
1940	13,479,142		7.1%
1950	14,830,192		10.0%
1960	16,782,304		13.2%
1970	18,236,967		8.7%
1980	17,558,072		−3.7%
1990	17,990,455		2.5%
2000	18,976,457		5.5%
2010	19,378,102		2.1%
2014 (est.)	19,746,227		1.9%
New York

• Minus all this for any given census year should yield the widely acknowledged "upstate" pop.

Historical population

Year	Pop.	±%
1698	4,937	—
1712	5,840	+18.3%
1723	7,248	+24.1%
1737	10,664	+47.1%
1746	11,717	+9.9%
1756	13,046	+11.3%
1771	21,863	+67.6%
1790	49,401	+126.0%
1800	79,216	+60.4%
1810	119,734	+51.1%
1820	152,056	+27.0%
1830	242,278	+59.3%
1840	391,114	+61.4%
1850	696,115	+78.0%
1860	1,174,779	+68.8%
1870	1,478,103	+25.8%
1880	1,911,698	+29.3%
1890	2,507,414	+31.2%
1900	3,437,202	+37.1%
1910	4,766,883	+38.7%
1920	5,620,048	+17.9%
1930	6,930,446	+23.3%
1940	7,454,995	+7.6%
1950	7,891,957	+5.9%
1960	7,781,984	−1.4%
1970	7,894,862	+1.5%
1980	7,071,639	−10.4%
1990	7,322,564	+3.5%
2000	8,008,288	+9.4%
2010	8,175,133	+2.1%
2014	8,491,079	+3.9%
New York City

Historical population

Census	Pop.	Note	%±
1800	6,353		—
1810	7,758		22.1%
1820	8,837		13.9%
1830	9,388		6.2%
1840	11,975		27.6%
1850	16,962		41.6%
1860	22,492		32.6%
1870	25,213		12.1%
1880	27,690		9.8%
1890	35,162		27.0%
1900	38,298		8.9%
1910	46,873		22.4%
1920	45,548		−2.8%
1930	59,599		30.8%
1940	74,261		24.6%
1950	89,276		20.2%
1960	136,803		53.2%
1970	229,903		68.1%
1980	259,530		12.9%
1990	265,475		2.3%
2000	286,753		8.0%
2010	311,687		8.7%
2014 (est.)	323,866	Rockland	3.9%

Historical population

Census	Pop.	Note	%±
1790	23,978		—
1800	27,428		14.4%
1810	30,272		10.4%
1820	32,638		7.8%
1830	36,456		11.7%
1840	48,686		33.5%
1850	58,263		19.7%
1860	99,497		70.8%
1870	131,348		32.0%
1880	108,988		−17.0%
1890	146,772		34.7%
1900	184,257		25.5%
1910	283,055		53.6%
1920	344,436		21.7%
1930	520,947		51.2%
1940	573,558		10.1%
1950	625,816		9.1%
1960	808,891		29.3%
1970	894,404		10.6%
1980	866,599		−3.1%
1990	874,866		1.0%
2000	923,459		5.6%
2010	949,113		2.8%
2014 (est.)	972,634	Westchester	2.5%

Historical population

Census	Pop.	Note	%±
1900	55,448		—
1910	83,930		51.4%
1920	126,120		50.3%
1930	303,053		140.3%
1940	406,748		34.2%
1950	672,765		65.4%
1960	1,300,171		93.3%
1970	1,428,080		9.8%
1980	1,321,582		−7.5%
1990	1,287,348		−2.6%
2000	1,334,544		3.7%
2010	1,339,532		0.4%
2014 (est.)	1,358,627	Nassau	1.4%

Historical population

Census	Pop.	Note	%±
1790	16,400		—
1800	19,735		20.3%
1810	21,113		7.0%
1820	23,936		13.4%
1830	26,780		11.9%
1840	32,469		21.2%
1850	36,922		13.7%
1860	43,275		17.2%
1870	46,924		8.4%
1880	52,888		12.7%
1890	62,491		18.2%
1900	77,582		24.1%
1910	96,138		23.9%
1920	110,246		14.7%
1930	161,055		46.1%
1940	197,355		22.5%
1950	276,129		39.9%
1960	666,784		141.5%
1970	1,124,950		68.7%
1980	1,284,231		14.2%
1990	1,321,864		2.9%
2000	1,419,369		7.4%
2010	1,493,350		5.2%
2014 (est.)	1,502,968	Suffolk	0.6%

• The clear conclusion from all this is that Upstate has NOT been losing population over the [late] 20th century. I'm not advocating for the economy or significance of the sparsely populated and much less know state of New York, but let's recognize the facts. B137 (talk) 17:54, 5 April 2016 (UTC)

Bold Title in First Sentence of Article

I would like to start a discussion on here to achieve consensus and avoid edit warring. Editor User:Zacwill wants to change the bold title in the first sentence from "Upstate New York" to just "Upstate". I believe that the bold text should remain "Upstate New York", for the following reasons:

• According to MOS:BOLDTITLE, the whole article name should be in bold.
• The term "Upstate" can refer to other regions, and Upstate does not redirect to here (also following MOS:BOLDTITLE.
• While people in New York State sometimes refer to the region as simply "Upstate", the widely-accepted name outside of the state is "Upstate New York".
• While using "Upstate New York" can introduce some redundancy, as the definition that follows references the state of New York, the Manual of Style clearly gives an example similar to this (the Oxford English Dictionary) where such redundancy is unavoidable. (Note that the first part of the example does not apply, as "Upstate New York" is a subject, and is not descriptive based on Wikipedia's definition.)

User:Zacwill, could you please provide your counterarguments here?

Vmanjr (talk) 12:03, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

Upstate again

There's a paragraph in the Definition section that talks about where "upstate" is and gives a source reference, but not a single thing in the definition is supported by that reference, it's like the reference was put there completely at random:

There is no clear official boundary between Upstate New York and Downstate New York. The broadest usage of the term Upstate New York excludes only New York City and Long Island, which are always considered to be part of Downstate New York. Another usage locates the Upstate/Downstate boundary further north, at the point where New York City's suburbs segue into its exurbs, as the exurbs do not fall within the US Census' urban area. This boundary places most, but not all, of Westchester and Rockland Counties in Downstate, while putting the northwestern edge of Rockland County as well as the northernmost quarter of Westchester County (including Peekskill) in Upstate.

I've marked the ref as {{failed verification}} as a first step, but imho that doesn't go far enough, as a whole series of unsubstantiated claims like this needs a reliable source, or several of them, and someone should either provide them within a reasonable time frame, or else the entire paragraph should be removed. Mathglot (talk) 09:59, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

References for 'Upstate again'

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Two questions to add to this article

1. What percentage of the state of New York's area does this constitute??
2. What percentage of the population of New York lives in this area?? Georgia guy (talk) 18:30, 9 January 2017 (UTC)