Talk:Untold Tales

Peart

@Hyliad: I don't know how best to represent this in the article, but I do think it matters that the drum track was not recorded for this song, but was an artefact that Glass Hammer built something around. Contrary to the newspaper report given, I don't believe that these tracks were only made available to selected acts: I think anyone can buy them from Sonic Reality. I presume the track in question is the one described here. If so, the drum track was previously released (and, possibly, may have been used on a prior album too: the XYZ—A Tribute to Rush EP). Bondegezou (talk) 12:57, 23 October 2017 (UTC)

Ah, yes, this interview I did confirms it's the same piece. Bondegezou (talk) 13:16, 23 October 2017 (UTC)

@Bondegezou:That's a good thing to know. However, the interview does not specify that the track had been previously released, or that it was made available for public use, unless I am mistaken. So, it does not make a real difference regarding the nature of Peart's involvement, although we now know when the track was originally produced, which is good. I guess other things we might do might be to remove the mention of Peart in the lead (mentionning him there might be a bit of a stretch regarding is relatively indirect contribution), and, possibly for the Personnel section, to keep the credit to simply "drums" but add a note (an example of such a note I added in another article is here for Zaher Zorgati at the end of the Vocalists sub-section) that would specify the unusual nature of his contribution. But I am not sure if that is needed.--Hyliad (d), October 23, 2017; 15:27 (5EST)

I like the footnote idea. We don't have a clear citation on this, but my understanding is that the Peart drum tracks are available here (volume 2). Bondegezou (talk) 15:00, 23 October 2017 (UTC)

The problem is still the lack of source, not to mention that this Sonic Reality thing is still a little unclear. I admit I'm uncertain on what to do. There is the chance that the album's booklet might have the info we need, if you own it. Personally I ordered the album yesterday and am waiting for it to arrive. --Hyliad (d), October 24, 2017; 00:50 (CEST)

I've not got the album yet. Yes, will be helpful to see what it says itself. I think your other suggestions still work: de-emphasise Peart in the lede, add a footnote that Peart's drum track was recorded prior to Glass Hammer's involvement. I'd also remove the phrase "and made them available to a selected number of acts" as I think that's wrong. I think my interview qualifies as an acceptable source for some background under WP:UGC, but I'll leave that decision up to others. Bondegezou (talk) 09:31, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

@Bondegezou: I finally received the album, added info to the article based on the inner notes. You'll see that I also changed the info regarding Peart based on the consensus we reached on this talk page; it's still not super clear, but it seems there was more to it than simply buying the sample and using it. If you want to compare my changes to the info on the booklet, here is what is written by Steve Babb for "The Impulsive Type":

Written by Fred Schendel, Steve Babb, and Kamran Alan Shikoh, performed by Carl Groves, Fred Schendel, Steve Babb and Kamran Alan Shikoh, featuring Neil Part Drums by Sonic Reality.

"In 2014 Dave Kerzner of Sonic Reality asked us to perform a track with Neil Peart. What's that you say ? Well, actually it was a request to write a song on top of Neal's drum tracks that were recorded during the making of Sonic Reality's 'Neil Peart Drums' sample library. The tracks you hear are live drums tracks however, not the samples. Was it possible to write a song over Neal's tracks without it sounding Rush-influences ? No. Enjoy!" --Hyliad (d), October 28, 2017; 21:10 (CEST)

Thanks for typing that out. I think that's still what we thought it was. Peart recorded drum tracks for Sonic Reality: these included full recordings of his drum parts for various Rush songs (and maybe more?). Sonic Reality make the point that these aren't just samples: these are full, multi-minute recordings of Peart drumming. They have been used elsewhere, e.g. on the Sonic Elements Rush tribute EP (see [1] and [2]). However, the point remains that Peart recorded them without any input to or knowing what would then be done to them by others. Peart recorded them, then they were given to Glass Hammer. Peart had nothing to do with Glass Hammer.

So I think the current text is mistaken in that it gives the impression that Glass Hammer worked with samples, and then Peart recorded a full drum track. No, Glass Hammer were always working with the same, pre-recorded drum track, done live by Peart. Bondegezou (talk) 09:48, 6 November 2017 (UTC)

Re-wrote what you did a little, but I think overall we got the thing turning out alright. In the booklet, Babb seems to insist that those are "live drum tracks", so I added that, also while clearly stating that those were not recorded by Peart specifically for Glass Hammer. I notably used the word "used" instead of "featured" as I think it is more accurate, since Peart is not really "featured" as the album as much as they are using his work (that said with no pejorative connotation). I still have a few doubts regarding some stuff, like "Troll" where the only credit in the booklet is "performed Steve Babb and Fred Scendel, featuring Tim Starnes (harmonica)". Since the track seems to feature dual lead vocals I listed both as lead vocalists but I'm not positive on that. There's also the Tracy Cloud thing as you can see in the first footnote of Personnel. For the rest, I'm satisfied with the article as it is now, Neil Peart things included. Thanks for helping with that. --Hyliad (d), 13:49, November 6, 2017 (CEST)

Thanks for all your work on the article. In terms of the drum tracks, my understanding from the time these were recorded is that they are "live" in the sense that Peart sat down at a drum kit and played them, and Sonic Reality recorded him.

With the Tracy Cloud thing... it's difficult when reliable sources don't entirely make sense. I worry that pointing this out constitutes OR, but not pointing it can be misleading and confuse the reader even more. Bondegezou (talk) 13:42, 6 November 2017 (UTC)

Me again... The liner notes say, "to write a song on top of Neal's drum tracks that were recorded during the making of Sonic Reality's 'Neil Peart Drums' sample library. The tracks you hear are live drums tracks however, not the samples." You've interpreted that as: "Glass Hammer wrote and recorded a song based on those drum samples [...] Instead of the original studio samples, the Untold Tales version uses pre-existing "live drum tracks" by Peart." I think that's wrong: specifically, the liner notes are not saying that Glass Hammer ever recorded a song based on the drum samples. Rather, the liner notes are saying they (always) worked with a full drum track, but that the drum track comes from the same recording sessions as produced a sample library. Does that make sense? Bondegezou (talk) 13:47, 6 November 2017 (UTC)

Good point, they don't specify that the actual track used was not the one used for their songwriting. I'll correct that.--Hyliad (d), 19:15, November 6, 2017 (CEST)